WEBVTT 00:00:02.100 --> 00:00:03.449 Matthias: Another season done. 00:00:04.250 --> 00:00:07.970 I truly can't believe how quickly time has passed, and to some extent 00:00:07.970 --> 00:00:11.505 that's a good thing because I truly enjoyed this recent set of interviews. 00:00:12.545 --> 00:00:14.525 It might have been my favorite one so far. 00:00:15.485 --> 00:00:20.705 We saw a well-rounded group of Ians talk about their experiences with the language 00:00:21.035 --> 00:00:25.895 guests ranged from developer tooling with estro over web backends with s vix, all 00:00:25.895 --> 00:00:29.495 the way to operating systems and cloud infrastructure with Microsoft, and 00:00:29.495 --> 00:00:33.215 a truly inspirational interview with Nico Makis from the Rust Core team. 00:00:33.813 --> 00:00:37.203 In Nico's interview in particular, which we recorded at Rust Week in the 00:00:37.203 --> 00:00:40.953 Netherlands, he said something that truly changed the way I see Rust. 00:00:41.223 --> 00:00:46.083 He said that the goal of Rust is to help build foundational software, and 00:00:46.083 --> 00:00:49.083 that inspired me so much that I even wrote an entire blog post about it. 00:00:49.983 --> 00:00:52.473 I'm not gonna repeat everything that I said in that blog post, and 00:00:52.473 --> 00:00:54.123 I will link to it in the show notes. 00:00:54.423 --> 00:00:58.563 but I wanted to take the opportunity to reflect on the recent season in light of 00:00:58.563 --> 00:01:00.153 this new understanding of the language. 00:01:00.693 --> 00:01:03.273 First, let's hear it from Nico himself. 00:01:03.773 --> 00:01:05.183 Niko: Foundational software. 00:01:05.603 --> 00:01:09.683 It's the software that everybody else builds on, and that could 00:01:09.683 --> 00:01:11.933 be many different things, right? 00:01:12.233 --> 00:01:16.523 I think sometimes that's like the kernel that's very literally the 00:01:16.523 --> 00:01:17.753 thing that everyone else runs on. 00:01:18.083 --> 00:01:21.923 But other times it's a CLI tool that's super widely used and it's 00:01:21.923 --> 00:01:23.293 part of the scripting setup you use. 00:01:23.793 --> 00:01:26.523 That kind of software has particular characteristics. 00:01:26.553 --> 00:01:30.093 It needs to be really reliable because if it breaks everybody else's 00:01:30.093 --> 00:01:32.703 stuff breaks, it needs to be fast because everyone's building on it. 00:01:32.703 --> 00:01:38.343 And so whatever performance hits you take there, everybody has to to work with, and 00:01:38.883 --> 00:01:40.953 it has this long-term maintenance story. 00:01:41.682 --> 00:01:44.112 Matthias: Foundational software is different from systems 00:01:44.112 --> 00:01:47.322 programming software in a sense that it's wider in scope. 00:01:49.092 --> 00:01:52.032 What foundational software is largely depends on the 00:01:52.032 --> 00:01:53.652 organization writing the software. 00:01:54.252 --> 00:01:58.632 It can be as varied as a package manager, a storage layer, or a rust backend. 00:01:59.112 --> 00:02:02.772 I think rust is excellent for this type of work where correctness and 00:02:02.772 --> 00:02:07.248 stability are of utmost importance instead of following the worst better 00:02:07.248 --> 00:02:11.448 approach that we know from systems like Unix or other programming languages. 00:02:11.838 --> 00:02:14.178 Rust is very much an MIT like language. 00:02:14.718 --> 00:02:19.158 It wants you to do the right thing and do the thing right, the right thing. 00:02:19.158 --> 00:02:22.818 Designers are equally concerned with simplicity, correctness, 00:02:22.818 --> 00:02:24.288 consistency and completeness. 00:02:24.498 --> 00:02:27.078 And I truly believe this is where Ross is amazing. 00:02:27.578 --> 00:02:30.728 In some of my consulting calls, people ask me if Ross is the 00:02:30.728 --> 00:02:32.078 right choice for their project. 00:02:32.768 --> 00:02:36.758 It typically comes down to is the software that you build foundational? 00:02:37.298 --> 00:02:39.848 That means do you expect to run it for many years to come? 00:02:40.448 --> 00:02:44.558 Does it serve as a platform for other tools and software in your organization? 00:02:45.248 --> 00:02:48.698 Do you care about robustness, stability, and long-term maintenance? 00:02:49.185 --> 00:02:51.865 If you can answer all of these questions with, yes, there's a 00:02:51.865 --> 00:02:54.745 high chance that rust is indeed the language that you're looking for. 00:02:55.245 --> 00:02:58.455 But if you are just looking for a quick solution or you want to build a 00:02:58.455 --> 00:03:02.595 prototype or you care more about fast results than a healthy co base, then Rust 00:03:02.595 --> 00:03:03.915 might not be the right choice for you. 00:03:04.415 --> 00:03:07.055 The companies that were guests in the season all build 00:03:07.055 --> 00:03:08.435 foundational software with frost. 00:03:09.065 --> 00:03:10.775 Let's take one password, for example. 00:03:11.465 --> 00:03:15.545 The core abstraction is to handle passwords for millions of users, and 00:03:15.545 --> 00:03:17.435 that definitely needs to be rock solid. 00:03:17.945 --> 00:03:19.895 Undoubtedly, they build foundational software. 00:03:20.735 --> 00:03:25.985 Or take Ksat controlling hundreds of satellites with rust or swix 00:03:26.075 --> 00:03:27.485 handling millions of webhooks. 00:03:27.875 --> 00:03:30.035 All of these things must not fail. 00:03:30.605 --> 00:03:33.725 They must work with the highest criticality, and I think that's what 00:03:33.725 --> 00:03:37.400 Rust should focus on, , or at least focus their marketing efforts on in the future. 00:03:38.400 --> 00:03:41.430 But isn't foundation software just systems programming? 00:03:41.930 --> 00:03:46.040 I believe that systems programming has its place, but the term is so overloaded 00:03:46.040 --> 00:03:47.415 by now that it's lost much of its. 00:03:48.626 --> 00:03:51.776 It's difficult to say that Rust is a systems programming language 00:03:51.776 --> 00:03:54.476 without being lumped into the same category as c plus plus. 00:03:54.476 --> 00:03:57.776 In that regard, I think systems programming is also limiting. 00:03:58.076 --> 00:04:02.513 It feels elitist somehow, whereas Rust aims to be very inclusive and enables 00:04:02.513 --> 00:04:04.164 everyone to learn how systems work. 00:04:04.964 --> 00:04:07.484 Here's Charlie Marsh from Astral, the team behind uv. 00:04:07.984 --> 00:04:11.404 Charlie: I never considered myself to be like a systems programmer, quote unquote. 00:04:11.434 --> 00:04:15.904 In most of my career, I was writing TypeScript Python. 00:04:15.964 --> 00:04:20.434 I mean, I did some Java professionally, but like I had never, except for like 00:04:20.494 --> 00:04:24.604 a course in college done, NECI really hadn't done DC plus plus and like 00:04:25.114 --> 00:04:29.968 in the span of a few years, I like learned to build this kind of software. 00:04:30.468 --> 00:04:32.328 Matthias: And here's Andrew Burkhart from One Password. 00:04:32.828 --> 00:04:34.598 Andrew: I also have no computer science background. 00:04:34.598 --> 00:04:37.658 I was a construction worker before, and I worked at, you know, a 00:04:37.658 --> 00:04:39.608 drugstore before I became a developer. 00:04:39.608 --> 00:04:43.388 So I had no idea about binary trees and sorting. 00:04:43.393 --> 00:04:47.858 I, I still really don't, to be honest, but it's, rust has a way of bringing 00:04:47.858 --> 00:04:53.978 those things out in you, which is hard at first, but it also helps you to shore them 00:04:53.978 --> 00:04:55.928 up because you see where your gaps are. 00:04:56.428 --> 00:04:59.398 Matthias: People are able to do systems level work without noticing. 00:04:59.728 --> 00:05:00.293 Thanks to Rust. 00:05:01.708 --> 00:05:04.888 They just learn things as they go, and before they know it, they 00:05:04.888 --> 00:05:08.308 manage to write critical software components for their organizations. 00:05:08.968 --> 00:05:11.908 Often without formal training, while they can still be confident 00:05:11.908 --> 00:05:13.288 that their code is memory safe. 00:05:13.788 --> 00:05:14.718 And you know what's funny? 00:05:15.228 --> 00:05:18.048 The way people see rust from the outside is totally different 00:05:18.048 --> 00:05:19.488 from what's actually happening. 00:05:19.968 --> 00:05:23.988 People think it's this hipster language that only hobbyists mess around with 00:05:23.988 --> 00:05:27.318 on weekends, or they think it's some over-engineered thing that only Google 00:05:27.318 --> 00:05:31.758 and meta use for crazy complex stuff, or that it's just an academic research 00:05:31.758 --> 00:05:34.098 language, but that's just not true at all. 00:05:35.478 --> 00:05:37.878 I see companies all over the place using rust. 00:05:37.968 --> 00:05:41.148 Small teams, big teams here in Germany, everywhere. 00:05:41.688 --> 00:05:43.308 They're solving real problems with it. 00:05:43.808 --> 00:05:46.028 Let's hear from some of the guests from this season about 00:05:46.208 --> 00:05:47.438 how they use rust in production. 00:05:47.678 --> 00:05:49.148 First, Nik Makis 00:05:49.648 --> 00:05:52.918 Niko: Most people I talk to are not aware of how much rust is in in production 00:05:52.918 --> 00:05:55.408 at Amazon, like every S3 request. 00:05:56.488 --> 00:06:00.958 Every EC2 VPC, you can tell my ignorance of even our own product line. 00:06:02.008 --> 00:06:06.838 Uh, uh, every lambda and vocation, these things all go through rust. 00:06:06.838 --> 00:06:08.518 They also go through other languages. 00:06:08.518 --> 00:06:11.938 So I'm not saying that the exclusively written in rust by any means, but 00:06:11.968 --> 00:06:16.138 more and more the, the hot path of a lot of these big services that 00:06:16.138 --> 00:06:20.308 you know is, is being rewritten and rust or re-architected and rust. 00:06:20.808 --> 00:06:22.398 Matthias: Andrew Burkhard out from one password. 00:06:22.898 --> 00:06:26.408 Andrew: But there's, there's probably, I think we have a couple hundred 00:06:26.408 --> 00:06:29.498 developers now working across all the different products that one password 00:06:29.918 --> 00:06:34.598 and, you know, collide and Passage and Trca and so forth have, but we probably 00:06:34.598 --> 00:06:38.588 have, I don't know, I'd say a hundred people that work pretty heavily in Rust 00:06:39.128 --> 00:06:41.348 or, or, or maybe 50% or more in Rust. 00:06:41.378 --> 00:06:42.038 Something like that. 00:06:42.538 --> 00:06:43.858 Matthias: Charlie Marsh from Astro 00:06:44.358 --> 00:06:48.798 Charlie: I think last I checked, it's like a little over 12.5% of 00:06:48.798 --> 00:06:53.403 all requests to the Python index come from uv, which is like over 200 00:06:53.403 --> 00:06:56.658 million requests a day, which is wild. 00:06:56.658 --> 00:06:56.898 Right? 00:06:56.898 --> 00:07:00.168 And you know, I spend a lot of my time talking to companies. 00:07:00.168 --> 00:07:04.158 There are tons of like 1 billion, 10 billion, even a hundred billion dollar 00:07:04.158 --> 00:07:07.394 companies that are using this thing in production and have been for a long time. 00:07:07.894 --> 00:07:09.454 Matthias: Victor URA from Microsoft. 00:07:09.954 --> 00:07:13.014 Victor: I think we reached an inflection point in the company where it's sort 00:07:13.014 --> 00:07:19.704 of we're all in on rust, as in we're committed to being, making rust succeed 00:07:19.704 --> 00:07:25.254 at Microsoft because we've seen so many successes in various projects and teams 00:07:25.254 --> 00:07:30.534 are no longer sort of treating it as a hobby experiment to happy accident 00:07:30.534 --> 00:07:31.799 that this thing works great in rust. 00:07:32.299 --> 00:07:34.309 Matthias: Not everything has to be webscale, though. 00:07:35.029 --> 00:07:36.874 It's not just systems programming either. 00:07:37.374 --> 00:07:41.454 This encouragement and its inclusivity is what makes the community so great. 00:07:41.456 --> 00:07:45.056 And as someone who's part of the Rust community, you should also reflect 00:07:45.056 --> 00:07:49.016 those values and be supportive of newcomers on their journey to discover 00:07:49.016 --> 00:07:50.306 their true potential with frost 00:07:51.266 --> 00:07:52.916 as Adam Handel from Timbo noticed. 00:07:52.976 --> 00:07:56.996 The developer experience is great at any scale, you can just 00:07:56.996 --> 00:07:58.257 start small and grow from there. 00:07:58.757 --> 00:07:58.907 Adam: Yeah. 00:07:58.907 --> 00:08:03.617 Most of, most of the time, if I'm building a web server today, I, I'll 00:08:03.647 --> 00:08:06.467 just grab aps and, and run with it. 00:08:06.947 --> 00:08:09.977 You know, if I'm working with Data and Postgres, I'm gonna grab SQL X. 00:08:10.547 --> 00:08:15.527 10 years ago it would've been like flask or Fast API, or maybe not 10 00:08:15.527 --> 00:08:19.787 years ago for Fast API, but you know, I have the equivalent of everything 00:08:19.787 --> 00:08:23.687 that I would, you know, five years ago would've gone to something in Python. 00:08:23.777 --> 00:08:27.017 I have, you know, for me, I like, I'd just pick rust. 00:08:27.017 --> 00:08:27.827 It's just easier. 00:08:28.517 --> 00:08:29.470 It's a better experience. 00:08:29.970 --> 00:08:33.390 Matthias: Developer experience is not just about the language itself, but also 00:08:33.390 --> 00:08:35.100 about the tooling and the ecosystem. 00:08:35.430 --> 00:08:37.145 Rust has cargo, which is a game changer. 00:08:37.645 --> 00:08:41.545 Adam: I came from Python and it was like, how do I get my environment 00:08:41.545 --> 00:08:43.285 set up to, to run my application? 00:08:43.615 --> 00:08:46.525 And at the time it was like, do I use virtual end? 00:08:46.525 --> 00:08:47.755 Do I use poetry? 00:08:47.755 --> 00:08:49.645 Do I just install everything with pip? 00:08:50.335 --> 00:08:51.685 You know, it's just, it's a mess. 00:08:51.685 --> 00:08:56.065 Like there's some projects that are making it better in Python today, 00:08:56.065 --> 00:09:00.745 like UV is doing a really great job cleaning up that, solving that problem. 00:09:01.705 --> 00:09:04.585 But when I was learning Rust, it was like, Hey, how do I run this? 00:09:04.615 --> 00:09:05.815 How do I run this application? 00:09:06.085 --> 00:09:06.355 Oh. 00:09:06.775 --> 00:09:07.345 Cargo run. 00:09:07.465 --> 00:09:07.855 That's it. 00:09:08.185 --> 00:09:09.595 You know, how do I test it? 00:09:10.225 --> 00:09:13.615 Cargo test, you know, it, uh, it was just so intuitive. 00:09:14.254 --> 00:09:16.774 Matthias: And once you get the hang of it, you can build really 00:09:16.774 --> 00:09:18.604 powerful stuff really quickly. 00:09:19.264 --> 00:09:22.909 Suddenly you find yourself writing extensions for your database in no time. 00:09:23.409 --> 00:09:29.469 Adam: To go from like nothing to a Hello World example, it was like an 00:09:29.469 --> 00:09:34.299 hour or less to create an extension that, you know, you write some function 00:09:34.299 --> 00:09:38.679 in rust turn that function into a SQL function that you could call. 00:09:39.219 --> 00:09:40.719 That was like super easy. 00:09:40.719 --> 00:09:45.429 So it was kind of, you know, like we didn't have to, it it, we were, we 00:09:45.429 --> 00:09:46.479 were up and running really quickly. 00:09:46.979 --> 00:09:50.199 Matthias: Adam's journey is not unheard of in the Russ community, and all of 00:09:50.199 --> 00:09:54.054 this is to prove that Rust is enabling people to reach further, further 00:09:54.054 --> 00:09:55.824 than they themselves thought possible. 00:09:56.376 --> 00:09:58.896 You can build stuff that you never thought you could build before, 00:09:59.046 --> 00:10:00.726 and that's what I love about Rust. 00:10:01.226 --> 00:10:04.526 If you're an old timer, you might still remember the great series 00:10:04.526 --> 00:10:08.366 of blog posts about rust being like a fire flower or a chat pack. 00:10:08.616 --> 00:10:11.796 something that sort of unreasonably makes you extremely powerful. 00:10:15.066 --> 00:10:15.906 Here's Charlie Marsh 00:10:16.406 --> 00:10:20.456 Charlie: I do feel like I'm constantly guided by the compiler, and actually more 00:10:20.456 --> 00:10:25.136 and more I think the way I write code is that I try and make it such that I will 00:10:25.136 --> 00:10:27.176 be guided by the compiler in the future. 00:10:27.676 --> 00:10:29.391 Matthias: and here's Tom Koen from svi. 00:10:29.891 --> 00:10:33.671 Tom: I think rust really got it right, uh, in the, in how to do error 00:10:33.671 --> 00:10:37.631 propagation, which is, you don't, you can't just like willingly throw random 00:10:37.631 --> 00:10:39.161 exceptions all the way up to the stack. 00:10:39.161 --> 00:10:44.261 Like you have to catch them at every step and define the, you know, like properly 00:10:44.261 --> 00:10:48.606 define the, the signature and kind of like the contract that you have with the color. 00:10:49.035 --> 00:10:52.875 And with rust, you spend more in the beginning, but actually that then later 00:10:52.875 --> 00:10:54.765 on you don't have to spend as much energy. 00:10:55.245 --> 00:10:56.865 Uh, and I think now we move fast. 00:10:57.138 --> 00:11:00.483 Matthias: And that metaphor still holds true today, but I think there's 00:11:00.483 --> 00:11:04.533 something deeper going on when you look at all the companies I talked to 00:11:04.533 --> 00:11:09.003 in this season, they're not just using rust to feel powerful or to show off. 00:11:09.483 --> 00:11:11.643 they're using it because they need something that's going 00:11:11.643 --> 00:11:14.523 to last something reliable. 00:11:14.823 --> 00:11:18.063 Gradin wrote a nice blog post about 10 years of stable rust, and I 00:11:18.063 --> 00:11:20.463 highly recommended in this post. 00:11:20.523 --> 00:11:24.843 He also talks about rust for writing software that underpins other software, 00:11:25.293 --> 00:11:27.123 and I think that's the thing about Rust. 00:11:27.483 --> 00:11:32.043 It's really a language for decades when you're building foundational systems, 00:11:32.403 --> 00:11:36.783 you're betting that this stuff is going to pay off in the long run that organizations 00:11:36.783 --> 00:11:40.648 and society will benefit from what you're building for decades to come. 00:11:41.793 --> 00:11:44.913 We are building systems that people will use every day and they might 00:11:44.913 --> 00:11:48.233 not even know they're using them, but they still depend on them. 00:11:48.483 --> 00:11:50.583 That's what critical software is all about. 00:11:51.083 --> 00:11:51.983 Here's Tom Hackman 00:11:52.483 --> 00:11:55.363 Tom: So really I think when it comes to infrastructure, like really the 00:11:55.363 --> 00:11:58.993 best you can do, even if you do everything perfect is just have a 00:11:58.993 --> 00:12:00.283 neutral effect on your customers. 00:12:00.283 --> 00:12:02.683 Your customers won't notice that you spend all of this time on it. 00:12:02.683 --> 00:12:06.793 So, and this is part of what we hope you do to do, is really just like give your 00:12:06.793 --> 00:12:09.193 customers a state of the art experience. 00:12:09.253 --> 00:12:12.343 They don't think about it, they don't worry about, it just works. 00:12:12.403 --> 00:12:15.048 And for you, you don't have to maintain it and worry about any of that. 00:12:15.548 --> 00:12:18.578 , Matthias: and Ru lets you do all this with really great ergonomics. 00:12:18.758 --> 00:12:19.238 for example. 00:12:19.238 --> 00:12:21.668 Let's hear it from Virga, sanding in from Ksat. 00:12:22.168 --> 00:12:26.818 Vegard: The one thing I miss every time I go to any other language is just the enum. 00:12:26.818 --> 00:12:30.838 I think this I could model very well in an enum, and I don't have 00:12:30.838 --> 00:12:33.012 this capability and it saddens me. 00:12:33.530 --> 00:12:37.705 Matthias: It's like Ru took the pragmatism from c plus plus and the Purism from 00:12:37.705 --> 00:12:42.255 Hasco you can build software that's sustainable, that doesn't waste resources 00:12:42.345 --> 00:12:46.598 where precision and correctness actually matter stuff that works across different 00:12:46.598 --> 00:12:48.848 languages and up and down the stack. 00:12:49.348 --> 00:12:52.558 Vegard: So we are resource constrained in the fact that we don't want to 00:12:52.618 --> 00:12:58.528 overprovision every data center around the world near to all our antennas on 00:12:58.528 --> 00:13:02.458 our ground station sites, because first of all, we don't necessarily have the 00:13:02.818 --> 00:13:06.958 resources to do that, and we don't have the ability to do it at some point. 00:13:06.958 --> 00:13:10.942 So it's nice to use something that doesn't hogg all the resources 00:13:11.633 --> 00:13:14.003 . Matthias: I don't want to dwell on it for too long, but have 00:13:14.003 --> 00:13:15.473 you heard that rust is fast? 00:13:15.863 --> 00:13:16.973 I mean really fast. 00:13:17.393 --> 00:13:20.513 The fastness itself is not the point, but the fact that it 00:13:20.513 --> 00:13:22.583 allows you to run more with less. 00:13:23.003 --> 00:13:26.543 You can run fewer instances of your service, which means fewer 00:13:26.543 --> 00:13:30.323 servers, which means typically less ops work and therefore less 00:13:30.323 --> 00:13:31.643 money spent on infrastructure. 00:13:32.143 --> 00:13:35.383 The numbers keep coming in and they always tell the same story. 00:13:36.583 --> 00:13:37.573 Let's hear it from Tom. 00:13:38.073 --> 00:13:41.403 Tom: I think it was, I don't remember the exact numbers, but like, I think 00:13:41.403 --> 00:13:43.203 it was like probably 40 x or something. 00:13:43.263 --> 00:13:46.323 The difference between like the amount of Python runners that we ha needed 00:13:46.323 --> 00:13:47.793 to run compared to the rust ones. 00:13:48.993 --> 00:13:52.233 And the thing about that is that it actually compounds. 00:13:52.413 --> 00:13:56.643 So if you go from, let's even go for the basic, uh, case of just like two 00:13:56.673 --> 00:13:59.223 rust runners and like 80 Python ones. 00:14:00.123 --> 00:14:02.073 All of a sudden, like the two runners, they hit. 00:14:02.898 --> 00:14:06.948 In memory cache like all the time because there's just two of them, right? 00:14:06.948 --> 00:14:10.698 So let's say 50% of the time, but probably more than 50% because like the moment 00:14:10.698 --> 00:14:12.078 they flip it gets to the other one. 00:14:12.138 --> 00:14:13.488 That one now has it cached. 00:14:13.848 --> 00:14:16.188 So like in-memory caching is actually extremely effective. 00:14:16.688 --> 00:14:19.478 Matthias: If you've ever worked with a larger c plus plus code base, 00:14:19.478 --> 00:14:24.248 you know how hard it is to refactor the spooky action at a distance. 00:14:24.278 --> 00:14:28.358 The fear of breaking something, the lack of confidence that you actually did it, 00:14:28.891 --> 00:14:31.771 rust changes that if it compiles, it runs. 00:14:32.349 --> 00:14:36.369 And that gives you a level of confidence that you just don't get with C or c plus. 00:14:36.369 --> 00:14:36.639 Plus, 00:14:37.029 --> 00:14:37.569 in rust. 00:14:37.569 --> 00:14:41.109 You can refactor with ease knowing that the compiler will catch your mistakes. 00:14:41.609 --> 00:14:42.239 Here's V Guard. 00:14:42.789 --> 00:14:46.869 Vegard: Youngs ago, I was a c and c plus plus developer, and I did a 00:14:46.869 --> 00:14:51.489 bit of that and bit of that and just trying to refactor a c plus plus 00:14:51.489 --> 00:14:54.399 code base and having confidence that you've actually done it correctly. 00:14:55.389 --> 00:15:00.159 I have never had that, but trust like the, it's, if it compiles, it works. 00:15:00.284 --> 00:15:01.184 It basically is that. 00:15:02.184 --> 00:15:04.194 Matthias: I believe rust is a language for decades. 00:15:05.634 --> 00:15:10.224 A language which allows us to build software that lasts software that 00:15:10.224 --> 00:15:13.554 doesn't need constant handholding and doesn't go belly up when we stop looking 00:15:14.054 --> 00:15:17.384 . Again, I fully agree with Viot here when he shares his experience 00:15:17.384 --> 00:15:18.944 with a critical service at Ksat, 00:15:19.444 --> 00:15:20.974 Vegard: I have a good example of that because. 00:15:22.114 --> 00:15:25.759 A couple of months back, we needed to do some changes in a few of our 00:15:25.759 --> 00:15:29.989 services running, and I went into the repository for that service to actually 00:15:29.989 --> 00:15:33.769 fix it, and I saw the last commit was one and a half year ago, and it's just 00:15:33.769 --> 00:15:35.149 been running one and a half years. 00:15:35.239 --> 00:15:39.019 I haven't touched it and I have never had that experience in my professional career. 00:15:39.589 --> 00:15:41.554 That service was the main. 00:15:42.099 --> 00:15:46.509 Authentication authorization service that authenticated and managed 00:15:46.509 --> 00:15:48.399 every API key, uh, principle. 00:15:48.519 --> 00:15:50.289 So it'll used on every request. 00:15:50.949 --> 00:15:52.875 It's really chugging along, so it's, it's amazing. 00:15:53.875 --> 00:15:54.875 Matthias: 10 years of rust. 00:15:56.205 --> 00:15:59.115 It's surreal how much we have accomplished in such a short time. 00:15:59.385 --> 00:16:01.815 Well short for a new programming language, at least 00:16:02.315 --> 00:16:03.425 rust has come a long way. 00:16:03.845 --> 00:16:05.195 The community is strong. 00:16:05.195 --> 00:16:08.225 The ecosystem's growing, and the language is maturing. 00:16:08.525 --> 00:16:11.315 It's exciting to see where Rust will go in the next 10 years. 00:16:12.485 --> 00:16:16.325 I think there's still a lot of work to do around using rust to its full potential. 00:16:16.715 --> 00:16:20.765 Now that we have a stable language and a solid ecosystem, we can focus on design 00:16:20.765 --> 00:16:25.185 patterns and best practices . For example, how do you structure code and how do you 00:16:25.185 --> 00:16:27.315 work with very large rust code bases? 00:16:28.335 --> 00:16:29.145 Here's Andrew again, 00:16:29.645 --> 00:16:33.095 Andrew: So we are, I think I just looked the other day and we were at 00:16:33.095 --> 00:16:40.175 like five or 600,000 lines of rust in the core across like 600 ish crates. 00:16:40.505 --> 00:16:44.405 I think we're just shy of 600 crates, internal plus dependencies. 00:16:45.215 --> 00:16:47.495 So it's, it's a pretty big code base. 00:16:47.495 --> 00:16:47.795 Right. 00:16:47.795 --> 00:16:51.425 And like I said, that that core makes up as much of the business 00:16:51.425 --> 00:16:53.645 logic as we can get it to. 00:16:53.982 --> 00:17:00.072 What we found teaching people is the issue is not learning the rust syntax. 00:17:00.582 --> 00:17:05.022 It tends to be that rust, good rust requires a bit of engineering knowledge, 00:17:05.412 --> 00:17:08.082 and that's not maybe engineering knowledge that the book is covered. 00:17:08.352 --> 00:17:08.682 Right. 00:17:08.892 --> 00:17:10.572 And you and I talked about this a little bit, right? 00:17:10.572 --> 00:17:12.582 Like, how do I know when I make a new crate? 00:17:12.732 --> 00:17:15.012 Well, the Rust book doesn't, I mean, it's not gonna tell you that that's 00:17:15.012 --> 00:17:16.482 not really a rust problem, right? 00:17:16.482 --> 00:17:18.612 That's a, your code based problem. 00:17:18.612 --> 00:17:19.722 It's an engineering problem. 00:17:20.209 --> 00:17:21.979 Matthias: Here's Victora from Microsoft. 00:17:22.479 --> 00:17:27.189 Victor: We have hard data that shows that components that have been rewritten 00:17:27.279 --> 00:17:32.229 are much solid, much more solid, and we can actually even formally prove some 00:17:32.229 --> 00:17:37.424 of them that to be memory safe, both in terms of spatial and temporal safety. 00:17:38.224 --> 00:17:41.944 So it's the no bullshit about it. 00:17:42.094 --> 00:17:46.114 It's literally what we're calling it inside, at least on my team. 00:17:46.384 --> 00:17:47.584 Who's responsible to drive. 00:17:47.854 --> 00:17:53.194 This is 2025 is the year of Microsoft, uh, the year of Frost at Microsoft. 00:17:53.194 --> 00:17:55.349 So literally, this is what we're calling it. 00:17:56.055 --> 00:17:59.685 Matthias: I want to end this season with words from Nico that capture 00:17:59.685 --> 00:18:02.685 both what makes Rust special and what makes the community great. 00:18:03.185 --> 00:18:06.185 Niko: So the fact that Rust has versatile enough, versatile enough 00:18:06.665 --> 00:18:11.555 to be optimized for those sort of foundational low level applications and 00:18:11.555 --> 00:18:17.165 yet be usable all the way up is pretty important and a little surprising. 00:18:17.675 --> 00:18:18.515 I think a cool, a cool outcome. 00:18:19.315 --> 00:18:21.565 Matthias: And finally, his message to all of us. 00:18:22.065 --> 00:18:23.385 Niko: Yeah, be excellent to each other. 00:18:24.165 --> 00:18:27.105 I think Bill and Ted put it best and I can't do better than that. 00:18:27.605 --> 00:18:30.275 Matthias: I want to thank all the guests who took the time to 00:18:30.275 --> 00:18:31.835 share their experiences with Rust 00:18:32.675 --> 00:18:36.545 I learned a lot from each of you, and I hope our listeners did too. 00:18:37.565 --> 00:18:42.215 And I also want to thank you, the listener for tuning in and supporting the podcast. 00:18:42.785 --> 00:18:45.545 Your feedback and encouragement is what keeps us going. 00:18:46.045 --> 00:18:49.255 We don't say this often, but if you enjoyed this season, please 00:18:49.255 --> 00:18:52.465 consider leaving a review on your favorite podcast platform. 00:18:52.765 --> 00:18:55.795 It really helps us reach more people and share our passion for us. 00:18:56.295 --> 00:18:59.655 And perhaps you have a colleague or a friend who might be interested in this 00:18:59.655 --> 00:19:03.775 podcast, maybe you can send them your favorite episode and help spread the word. 00:19:04.275 --> 00:19:08.865 And finally, a heartfelt thanks to Simon who tirelessly works in the background 00:19:09.245 --> 00:19:13.475 and is the only reason why you can even enjoy listening to this podcast. 00:19:13.975 --> 00:19:17.305 And with that, thanks for listening to Rust in Production. 00:19:17.805 --> 00:19:20.505 Rust In Production is a podcast by Corrode. 00:19:20.595 --> 00:19:21.675 It is hosted by me. 00:19:21.735 --> 00:19:24.675 Mattias Andler, and produced by Simon Bruen. 00:19:24.915 --> 00:19:29.145 For show notes, transcripts, and to learn more about how we can help your company, 00:19:29.175 --> 00:19:32.085 make the most of Rust visit corrode Dev.