Art for Arts Sake

Pipo Tafel & David W. Pyke

Since 06/2022 8 episodes

AFAS E01 The artist in everybody & the copyright

Making arts, making a living & the knitty gritty world of licensing

2022-06-11 16 min

Description & Show Notes

Who is this podcast for? Why? And we discuss copyright issues related to the music David contributed to this episode - how can and must we use it. The constant dilemma of being an artist and climbing the mountain of making it happen that feels like the Mount Everest. But don't give up, you're not alone.

David W. Pyke is a composer and musician from Australia
Pipo Tafel is a media artist and filmmaker from Germany

Transcript

PIPO Art for art's sake podcast good morning or good evening, David. I just started the recording episode one of Art for Art's Sake podcast. DAVID That's right. PIPO Yes. We talked about it last week when we were working on the performing art conversations behind the scenes, and we felt that there's a necessity to have a format to share stuff and do stuff that is what actually. DAVID If there's any artist who listen to this out there that are not quite sure why they're doing it except for the fact that they have to and they're not sure if that's ever going to be successful or recognized, but they still do it anyway. In fact, they're not sure about anything because they haven't been successful too much. And if they have, it's just been a little bit. DAVID So they're still not sure whether they should pursue this this thing they called art. And they're wondering, do other people go through this process, these feelings, or are they alone? This is a podcast for those sorts of people I think. PIPO So. Is it a podcast for artists, actually, or is it a podcast for everyone? DAVID I think it's for anyone because some people I think I think there's an artist in everybody. But I think some people are a bit confused. They have what they call a normal job or a normal occupation, or they don't really understand what makes certain people called themselves artists and either pretend or carry on with what whatever their activities are. DAVID So yeah, I think it's funny, but it was always sort of ....find it peculiar art people, what they made up, what they think. PIPO Like in Germany, we have the so-called I think it's the creative and cultural sector, and a big part of it is advertisement. What's the difference? Is that something we're going to explore here? I'm not so sure. DAVID I don't think it has to be defined because when you have a canvas, it's blank. The picture might be hiding within the strands of the cotton. So the conversation can be very organic and very open ended. It's nice to talk about, to reflect about why kind of we do what we do. But, you know, at the end of the day, we still don't understand that. DAVID In fact, we might have become more confused. But the journey of the talk could be quite interesting. PIPO There's practical questions like if we would like to use music, we came across these walls of regulations that if I use your music, I need to pay to the German royalty company called GEMA because they represent you in Germany. But I wonder if that will ever arrive in your place. These are things that we come across all the time when we're doing the artistic work. PIPO We're coming across administrative work and questions that are related to money. DAVID Well, copyright is a good thing, but we we weren't so focused on copyright. We were focused on the podcast and making the soundtrack and making something that was available and could be used. So it's it's external law makers and law making institutions who are fundamentally set up to protect the rights of composers and things and musicians. But it can be a little bit circular in the fact that you needed some music, DAVID you approached me. I made some music. It's good that the podcasts can use the music that I'm writing and take an interest in it. But then you have this thing of, well, oh, you're using David's music. Oh, my gosh, he's a is a registered member with somebody. Oh, okay. Now you have to pay him this much money. Somebody came up with some formula and contract about all of that. So it's it's a paradox. DAVID It's a good thing because in principle, artists need legislation to protect their rights. But it becomes cumbersome. I mean, I'm just trying to get these podcasts with you up and running, and it ties your hands because you're not Bill Gates with, you know, his super funds available. And so the royalties that you expressed to me well, quite a lot of money, you said was a 200 or 300 Euro a month or something. DAVID That was pretty full on. PIPO I have a lot of respect for the people who create things, you know, like he created. I wonder if he deals with his legal questions himself. And we're dealing with our legal questions ourselves. So it's also a question of time that the more time we spend for these legal and administrative questions [phone ringtone play in background] - and now I get messages, I don't know from whom, but the phone is over there - that if we spend more time on that administration and business questions, then we have less time for the arts. PIPO And so coming back to the beginning it's we want to do stuff. And this podcast project is an expression of our desire to do stuff. And we keep on doing stuff. We have been doing projects and they are not all visible also because of the questions of - Can it be presented because of a legal question?" Can there be someone who is recording it? PIPO "What is going to happen to their rights if they're registered? The musicians who who owns the who owns the work? The one who composed it? The one who records it or who is able to use it? Am I the one publishing it? Then I need to buy a license from the composer and the musician and maybe a company that is related to them. PIPO And we've gone through some interesting processes here that looks like everybody needs to go through more or less if they want to do such things. And we decided to make a podcast to be able to actually also get something done and shared. Not so sure what the intention was, why we said "Let's do a podcast about it". I think we just want to have results because I feel that the other ones we are working on, we're having results, but we're also stuck. PIPO We're stuck in those processes of legal procedures. And it's very unfortunate because there's stuff, as you said, that's valuable to be shared and to have an exchange about. DAVID Well, if you want to get into legalities and copyright law, that's that's a whole profession. And most artists are not lawyers and those artists don't have the background. So they have to be sort of getting, I guess, funding in because the first thing most lawyers will say to an artist is - let's start with 5000 and slush fund and we'll start looking at your IP, your intellectual property. DAVID But for most artists starting out artists or people are not really into at that level, they.... yeah, this is like the forbidden fruit. Like this is something I need to worry about you know. Am I grossing several hundred thousand dollars a year from my art? Do I need to employ a lawyer for $30,000 to find out what my rights are and to enforce it in principle? DAVID South Africa is a good example. They don't really have good copyright protection. So those are still very jealous of people in Australia, maybe Germany, America, Europe, because they'll write a song. We'll do something in this. Someone could copy it and there's no real enforcement agency to chase it or, or register to do anything so, you know, we're speaking from countries that do have these in place. DAVID So I think the principle of a copyright is fantastic. It's great that the government in certain countries recognizes that, you know, ownership of something belongs to the creating artists but yeah, the as we know with the laws, that's more usually the tool of the wealthy because lawyers cost money. Lawyers in a way - I'm not being too cynical, DAVID I could understand they've probably gone to university and and studied for many, many years to get their heads around stuff as well - so they will charge and they want their money upfront. The artist probably doesn't have the money upfront. Most artists probably don't. And some of those successful ones would. So what does that mean? It creates a class system of artists, doesn't it? DAVID The ones who are able to have law and chase the law and verify the law about what they're doing and then there's a whole bunch of artists out there that would like to in principle and agree, but they can't, they can't afford to take on a lawyer to go and check. I believe I've got orchestral works somewhere in China. DAVID Chinese company somewhere is possibly using it in ringtones or something. And not much I can do about it. I'm sitting in Australia and I don't have the strong arm or the infiltration of China and the law and their way of looking at what copyright is and respecting artists is a different one probably than what Australia has. So there's probably lots of ringtones going on in China somewhere with, you know, full bar clips of orchestral music that they didn't pay for and some company might be making money out of that. DAVID So that's what happens when you publish outsite or send music or put something on the internet. And so it's cumbersome and I guess, I guess the more money you have, the more expertize you can have and the better it can be looked after but it's a privilege in a way as well. PIPO It seems like what happened with the possibility of presenting work online - it's become more important to be visible than to show courtesy. Marshall McLuhan, a media philosopher from Canada who talked about it, that we are being shaped by the medium. We're using it, but we're taking habits that might not be the same like our values that we actually feel are important. PIPO But through using them, we just adapt unconsciously, consciously, being overwhelmed... And it takes a lot of detail to take care of those little nitty gritty things.... And also, yes, today we're not using music, as I understand. We are going to use sounds now? DAVID You can have music in this if you want. That's all right. This is not.... this has got no no walls. You can go whichever way you want. PIPO Does it mean that we're going to be able to use your music and publish it? DAVID I sent you a track today. You can chop that one to bits. It's got delay in it. It's quite an interesting effect. Hmm. PIPO Okay. So if I understand what we said is that we will use your free improvised music even though you are registered with a royalties company, and we will publish it through Australia. So are you allowed to use your own music without paying royalties? Because in Germany, if I use my own music and I'm registered with the royalty company GEMA, I mean, I need to pay to them too. DAVID No, no. I think there's a little caveat that free play recording I have to tell the body that registers my work. So after, after actually upload that track and then I have to they give it a number and identify a number with that track and then they can trace it and then they can register it and then it's all serious. DAVID But I'm doing the free plays not because it doesn't take skill effort or time, but it's not like recording. You know, if you did an album, people take six months of it's not that kind of a time investment. So the idea of the free play is that it's spontaneous. Yes. Just like these conversations and the one I've sent you today, DAVID yeah, I can say it on the podcast, so if people hear bits of it, that's fine too, or inspired. But it's between you and, me to use it on this podcast is no drama. If Coca-Cola takes it or somebody else, I might have some issue but it's my determination. I'm doing the free plays because as I said, it's it's something that I can sustain, you know, find some recording time and, and mix the track. DAVID And they're very spontaneous. And I think that's the that's the operative word about this art for Art's sake. It's spontaneous, organic conversation. So put some music on it because it just makes it a bit third dimensional. PIPO So actually, as a composer, and a musician, being able to also use your music makes it integral. DAVID This is a good setup, this podcast of just a conversation about as it says - art for art's sake is a good place to give people an insight. They were in the same position as both you and I have, even though we do maybe different genre and have different backgrounds in in art. But this many people at the top stages forged a career that's almost done and dusted, I suppose. DAVID But there's a lot of people still on the journey of the climb we're still climbing and like the guy that went to Everest four or five times to get to the summit, you're just still on the climb. You're getting a slightly better view sometimes, but you're not sure why you're there and you're not even sure if you're going to make it or if you have enough oxygen but the answer to that question, which we could finish the podcast now forever, is a two word answer - Why not? PIPO Thanks for listening to Art for Art's Sake Episode one and see you soon or hear you soon. DAVID Ciao for now and goodbye. PIPO [Music starts playing]