S2E1: “Random Archives, Global YouTube and Rewiring the Net: A Conversation with Ethan Zuckerman”
2025-09-25 41 min
Description & Show Notes
In the first episode of the series Fergal Lenehan and Luisa Conti, from the Centre for Digital Interculturality Studies, talk to Ethan Zuckerman. Ethan is a world-recognized expert in the field of the digital and is a professor at the Manning College of Information and Computer Sciences at the University of Massachusetts in Amherst, USA. He has published widely and his book, Rewire: Digital Cosmopolitans in the Age of Connection, originally from 2013, has been highly influential among those who wish to see more connection between the scholarly areas of Internet Studies and Intercultural Communications. The conversation engages with Ethan’s recent work on digital archives and the topic of random archiving, the different uses of the platforms YouTube and TikTok in different cultural contexts, and concludes with a discussion on the future of the Internet as Fergal asks Ethan to re-visit his arguments from 2013 for the present time.
Can the Internet, a tool which can potentially connect people rather than contributing further to polarization, really be rethought for the future in a more cosmopolitan manner?
Listen to find out!
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For more information on Ethan Zuckerman’s work, see: https://ethanzuckerman.com
Transcript
So I'm joined today by my colleague from the Centre for Digital Interculturality Studies, Luisa Conti. Hello to everyone. And our special guest today is Ethan Zuckerman, who is coming to us from Amherst in the United States. Nice to be with you. Great to have you, Ethan. Great to have you. Yeah, so Ethan is a world -recognized expert in the field of the digital and is a professor at the Manning College of Information and Computer Sciences at the University of Massachusetts in Amherst. He has published widely and his book, Rewire: Digital Cosmopolitans in the Age of Connection, originally from 2013, has been very influential among those who wish to see more connection between the scholarly areas of Internet Studies and Intercultural Communications. So I think Ethan is an ideal person to have here on our podcast.
Chapter 2: Budapest, Pompeii and Digital Archives Yeah, so Ethan, you gave a fascinating paper at our conference in June which centred on digital archives. And you started your paper very, very far from the Internet actually and in the city of Budapest during the communist period and with a short stop off at Pompeii. Do you want to explain to us how you made this short journey before sort of going into the more sort of the more expected sort of elements of your paper, I suppose? Sure. So I think a lot of people are used to thinking of the Internet as an archive of sorts.
And I will say that as an archive, the internet leaves a lot to be desired. Anyone can submit whatever they want, there's not a lot of clarity about provenance, there isn't very good metadata or labelling, indexing is in the hands of these tremendously powerful search engines. But one thing that can be very exciting about the Internet is that it can act as an accidental archive. And we can get something very special from an archive that didn't have the intentions of an archivist or a team of archivists behind it. And so accidental archives are the idea that my friend Ryan McGrady and I have been playing with. We've been playing with it primarily around a data set that we are generating out of both YouTube and TikTok.
But to try to explain the power of accidental archives, we start at the Open Society Archives in Budapest, and specifically an archive there, which is a set of photos left behind at the National Photo Processor of Hungary, Foltófó, in 86 and 89. So this is just a set of ordinary photographs taken by average Hungarians, or at least Hungarians wealthy enough to have cameras. And then there's the randomness of selection.
These were the photos that had some sort of technical error to them. So either the photo was blurry or something went wrong in processing, and so you end up with this random selection of photos just through sheer chance of what photos were not correctly exposed. And these were stored in giant rolls at the photoprocessor, and they ended up being rescued in 89 just as Budapest, just as Hungary was sort of going through the system change to follow the Berlin Wall. And so they end up being this quite priceless artifact of Hungarian life during that last decade before this transition into a more open society and a capitalist economy.
So we wanted to start people thinking about those moments of accidental preservation. Obviously, we talked about the most famous one, which is Pompeii. City life sort of stopped mid-stride by clouds of ash burying a city in its daily life. Of course, that's sort of an exaggeration. Most wealthy Pompeiians actually fled the city. What you have left behind were the elderly, the weak, the poor. But one way or another, you do have this sort of preservation of daily life, which is really different than how Pompeiians probably would have chosen.
to tell their history, tell us what's important about it. So accidental archives are of particular interest to me. And I think using the internet to surface accidental cultural archives at different moments in time is a really important direction. Chapter 3: Creating Random Digital Archives Yeah, thank you so much. Also for the picture you showed, the presentations, I suggest to everyone to look at the recording, just to dig holes in the past. And you're kind of actually not interested in the history of Hungary, for example, but you're interested in the history in general of society, of our global translocal society. So you're talking about archives which have been created by...
by different reasons like Pompeii more a destiny, let's say, the other more technical mistakes and so on. In the internet if I upload something it's usually not by mistake, I want to do that. But anyways it is important that if you want to study that, if you want to use this as a lens for cultural studies, you need to have a random sample. So and that's for me very interesting, I think for many here very interesting to understand how can we create a truly random archive of YouTube. I mean I think it's quite it feels quite easy now because you think you see always random videos but it's really like that. Can you tell us more on this? And also how you are coping with with this challenge of really creating this random archive for your studies.
Well, I think it's important to talk about why random archives are important. If you go to YouTube and just follow the recommended links for a little bit, you may feel like you're getting a very random picture of YouTube and kind of a very random picture of what's on that site. The truth is what you're getting is a slice of very high visibility videos. You are likely to be getting videos with a thousand or more views. Now, the truth is a thousand or more views is actually the top 15 % videos on YouTube.
The only reason I know that is that we have a pure random sample and so by taking a random sample of 50 ,000 YouTube videos that we find through a very clever technical trick that I'll talk about in a moment. We can assume that because our sample is purely random the characteristics of that sample will be quite similar to the characteristics of YouTube as a whole and so within our sample only 15 % of those videos have a thousand or more views. If you are looking at videos that generally have a thousand or more views You are looking at a highly specialized and probably highly sanitized collection.
What we suspect you are seeing is YouTube has reviewed a set of videos and said we think these, you know, follow our content rules, we think these are good enough as, you know, determined by the fact that a thousand viewers have looked at them. That these will not turn you off of YouTube, get you to change the channel and do something else with your time. But you can only find out so much about YouTube from those videos. You're not going to find out what 85 % of the people are doing with YouTube the rest of the time. Your response may be, I don't care about 85 % of the people, I only care about the high quality creators. And that's fine. If you're studying something like political misinformation, that might be a very reasonable thing to do.
But if you're studying what YouTube means in different cultures, if you're studying what are the different possible uses for YouTube, you need a random sample. And I would argue that even if you are studying something like political or medical misinformation, you want a random sample so you can find out how pervasive this stuff is. So how do you get this? On YouTube, we get this by guessing very large numbers. YouTube has 2 to the 64 possible identities for videos, and that's an enormous number. It's around 18 quintillion.
And what that means is even if there are 20 billion videos on YouTube, which is about what it is, you have to guess a billion numbers to be able to gain one video. We use a whole bunch of technical tricks so that we can guess multiple numbers at the same time. Once we determined 5 ,000 pure random videos, and that took us almost three months to sort of get that list, we used that as a yardstick to look at some other methods people had used. And there was a method that takes advantage of an indexing bug. It will auto -complete names of videos if you make five random characters and a hyphen, it will auto -complete the rest of it. We were able to demonstrate that those videos are sufficiently similar to our random videos that they are random and extrapolate from there.
We do something similar on TikTok, although what we're able to do on TikTok is actually quite a bit cooler. On TikTok, it's also a 2 to the 64 number. The first half of the number is a timestamp. So with TikTok, what you can do is pick a specific second in time, and you probably want to pick a second after TikTok was started, so pick a second in TikTok's lifetime, and then guess 2 to the 32 numbers, and there's a couple of ways that we've simplified that. There's a forthcoming paper on that. In TikTok, we're able to say, I want the first second of 4 a .m. GMT on July 1st, 2025. Give me a sample of those videos.
And we are able to extrapolate from that, again, what TikTok looks like as a whole. And again, we are seeing not just those videos that have millions or tens of millions of views, we're seeing all those videos that have fewer than 200 views. And that's a picture of ordinary TikTok, as well as the sort of extraordinary TikTok that we all end up spending time on. So actually, it's super interesting, this idea of choosing, selecting videos, depending on the time they have been made. So at the same time, what's happening in the world, kind of, na what has been at least published there, but then probably you have to choose different times in a day, because otherwise you have probably in part of the world, the people are awake and doing things and the other part less. So how do you do with this? That's right.
When we extrapolate the size of TikTok, and let me say a couple of things, we believe TikTok is quite a bit larger than YouTube. We believe YouTube is about 20 billion videos. We believe TikTok, depending on how you count, is around 75 billion videos. When I say how you count, in many countries TikTok is primarily a live streaming platform. And we can see that those videos were created, but we can't see those videos. They get deleted at the end of the live stream period. We're working on all sorts of techniques to be able to study those. But TikTok, in part, because it sort of started with a 15 second format, then went to a minute long format, there are so many more quick clips on TikTok than there are on YouTube. And so as far as kind of a slice of life, it's a very interesting and powerful platform.
Second of all, it turns out that TikTok is a global south platform. The countries where TikTok is best represented, where the most creatives are, are Indonesia, Pakistan, Bangladesh, the U .S. is in sort of a fight for fourth place with Bangladesh. India was the clear leader way ahead of everybody else until 2020, where the Modi government banned it. So yes, because hours of time, what we actually have to do is we write a script to pick seconds in a day, days in a month, months in a year, and we take a random sample of one second intervals from across all the years that TikTok has been around. And then we extrapolate based on that data. But the idea that we could come in and take
comparable time slices, you know, every month on TikTok is very exciting to me. And ideally, what we would be able to do over time is perhaps get a sense for how TikTok is changing. And we can do that in a way that's a little challenging technically to do with YouTube. Chapter 4: YouTube in Different Cultural Contexts Yeah, TikTok is changing and society is changing. And that's the point, you're looking at it. So there is YouTube, there is TikTok, but there is also TikTok on YouTube, right? And also you were saying when you were presenting the results that actually YouTube...
The content on YouTube is not so much in English as we would expect, but many other languages are actually much more represented there. And it's connected also with different kind of usage of YouTube. Now we have commercial videos very much, we have video streaming of computer games, but it's also used very, very, very much for private content. Would you like to say more about this and also about other findings? Sure. We just published a paper in Social Media and Society. So this is Kevin Zhang, Ryan McGrady, and myself. It's in the most recent edition of Social Media and Society. We refer to it as the four language paper. And what we ended up doing was we took a random sample of YouTube. We then ran it through Whisper, which is an open AI product.
Whisper was actually created to allow OpenAI, without anyone's permission, let's be very clear about that, to transcribe millions of YouTube videos, which they have used to train OpenAI's models. So, not necessarily the best behavior on OpenAI's part, but as it turned out, they created what for us is sort of the perfect tool for transcribing YouTube videos. So we use OpenAI's Whisper just to tell us what language is this video in. And then we take the language confidence score, we have native speakers of that language verify so we can figure out where the cutoff level is. So it turns out that, you know,
Open AI is actually very good at identifying Russian. It comes very clearly, Russian speakers, high degrees of confidence. It's lousy at identifying English and Hindi. We think that's because both English and Hindi get highly hybridized. There's a lot of Indian languages that have huge numbers of Hindi loanwords. There's lots of languages that use enormous amounts of English loanwords. So certain languages are easier to find than others. But we looked in detail at English, Spanish, Russian and Hindi. Hindi is interesting because it's the number two language on YouTube. It has exploded really in the last four or five years. It particularly exploded in 2020 after India banned TikTok. So many Indians went on TikTok first. When TikTok got pulled away, they used YouTube,
both to archive their TikTok creations, and also as a space to keep creating. And one of the things we noticed in this paper is that videos in Hindi have fewer views, but higher interaction, which is to say we can look across our whole corpus and say the average video has 42 views, you know, one like, zero comments. But Hindi videos are more like 38 views, but two or three likes and one or two comments. And so as we started digging into this, we realized that what was happening in Hindi language videos was very different than what we were seeing in English or Spanish or Russian. These were often videos that were not designed for the general public. They were designed for an audience of family or friends.
And Harshi Snehi, who's on my team, started creating a code book looking for terms of familiarity in the comments. So in Hindi and other Indian languages, people saying father or brother or my love or something like that, those would be indications that this is not a conversation between strangers. This is a conversation between intimates in one fashion or another. And so the theory that we're now trying to figure out through a combination of big data analysis, looking at the videos individually, and then going into India and interviewing people about video creation, we think what's happened is that India comes online, for the most part, with WhatsApp. WhatsApp is sort of the default application, much in the way that email is sort of the default application for people of our generation on the Internet. WhatsApp is the most basic thing that everybody uses.
And YouTube videos are very, very easy to share on WhatsApp. Unlike Instagram, WhatsApp, YouTube is really a creature of the open Internet. You have a URL, it's accessible to everybody. If you share a YouTube link, everybody can view it, no login. And so this behavioral pattern seemed to emerge in South Asia of sending a good morning video or an I miss you video or family events, posting it publicly to YouTube so that anyone could find it, and then sharing it with the family WhatsApp group. And so there is again, this accidental archive of daily life in middle and upper class India and also Bangladesh, Pakistan, so on and so forth,
based on this phenomenon of the friends and family video on YouTube. Chapter 5: Ethical Issues and the Quotidian Internet It's in an extremely public platform. We are creating, people are creating a kind of illusion of a private space, which though it's not so illusionary because, I mean, to find these videos was a hard job. Yeah, so actually it is kind of a private space, but anyways, it is not and somehow they are conscious about that even if it's, maybe we don't think about that when we publish certain contents and that for me, it's like the issue of ethical issue. No, how do we deal with this such private, quotidian internet? Sure. So let's say a couple of things.
It is a tendency that when Europeans and Americans talk to one another, Europeans tend to think in privacy terms, Americans tend to think in freedom of speech terms. I don't know where Indians sort of come into that analogy, but the sense that I get is that there's actually pretty good security through obscurity. We are doing fairly absurd things to be able to get these videos. And because we are getting these videos that people can sort of presume were for specific audiences, we are treating them as if they were private data. So when someone makes a YouTube video and it reaches 10 ,000 people, I think we can treat that as public speech. I think we can treat it as a public utterance.
But if someone was making a YouTube video and the only way anyone would know about it was that it was sent to their friends and family and it was, you know, a picture of someone's kids participating in an at-home religious ceremony, that feels like private data and it feels like we should handle it like private data. And so the way that we've been doing this is we are willing to share our code and we're willing to share our data, but only with people who will agree to very strict privacy preventions associated with it. The main partnership we've done with this data so far is with the BBC, because they've wanted to do a series of articles about the quotidian Internet.
And they've, they've set a very high bar when they decided to use video clips. They would only use video clips from people who would clear it. So they would reach out to people and essentially say “hey these crazy academics in the United States found your video that has 50 views. We are the BBC. We understand entirely if you do not want this shared But if you do we would love to be able to show it”. And that that feels like a very responsible way to do it. We won't simply hand over the set of URLs What we will do is put it with a repository likely Somar at the University of Michigan, where people are able to access it, but only if they agree to some enforceable privacy rules associated with them.
Chapter 6: Cyber-Utopianism, 12 Years After Rewire Okay, fascinating stuff, Ethan, in relation to archiving and that. I also want to go back actually to your 2013 book, Rewire, because I read it and loved it and it really created an impact on me personally and I know for other people too. In Rewire, it was sort of a public intellectual book with a lot of arguments about the Internet. And you argued really for the rewiring of the Internet beyond homophily, beyond sort of the love of the same, and you argued that it could be and should be readjusted from a cosmopolitan perspective.
Are these cyber-utopian arguments, and I mean cyber utopia in the most positive sense of the word, to be honest, are they still valid, do you think, that would be the first question? And if you were to make similar arguments 12 years later in 2025, how would these arguments sort of look now, I suppose, would be my question. Sure. Well, let me start by saying that rewire in many ways is a love letter to Global Voices. Global Voices is a project that I helped co-found 21 years ago. It is an explicitly cosmopolitan website. It's basically a space in which people from different countries who speak different languages can share their perspective on what's going on on their corner of the Internet.
It began as a way from bloggers from different parts of the world to meet each other and sort of find common cause through blogging. Over time, as blogs became less central to what the internet is about, it really became about this process of correcting the representation of your country. So, you know for instance, with our contributors from Pakistan, they tend to feel like Pakistan makes the news around terror and extremism. And they wanted to say, yeah, there's also a huge performance poetry scene in Lahore. And here is the response of Muslims donating blood when there was a terrorist attack on Christians in a local park. So how do we how do we change those narratives?
So Global Voices has been all about this idea that the Internet, if we want it to, can be a profound tool for experiencing other perspectives and other points of view. What's interesting is that the Internet is still just as capable of building those bridges. And in some ways, even more so. We had this amazing example when TikTok shut down briefly in the United States and a huge number of American TikTok creators found themselves on a platform called Redbook, which was another Chinese short video platform, really more a space for beauty influencers. But suddenly you had these wonderful interactions between
Americans, sort of saying, hey, you know, sorry to be in your space, but our government is being terrible and kind of chasing us off of TikTok, and a lot of Chinese influence are saying, hey, welcome, let's show you around this place. So there really are moments where the Internet can lead to cultural bridging in one fashion or another. The trick is that is not the default. And it's not the default because the easiest things to do are really two things. One is to give you the stuff that you already know. So Facebook gives you your old friends, the people you already know. One of the things I end up critiquing in Rewire is that Facebook could be oriented around discovery. Facebook could ask you, what are you excited about?
I love heavy metal music. Facebook could help me find my favorite new heavy metal band in Mongolia or Botswana. But it has no interest in that. That's much riskier than just trying to connect me to the people that I was hanging out with in high school or elementary school. So the first thing that we know that works is giving people what they're already familiar with. The second thing is giving people predictable controversy. So Facebook figures out pretty quickly that I lean to the left, I post links from the New York Times, not from the New York Post. You know, they make guesses based on me being from Massachusetts and being a university professor. So they'll give me rage bait every so often. They'll give me stuff from the right that they know that I'm going to hate and that I'm going to want to fight with,
and they'll give me predictable leftist politics that they know that I'll get excited about and sort of amp up. Those are the two safe ways to generate traffic. Neither of them is very interesting. Both of them leave you trapped in homophily. You know the people you already know, you know the political views that you already know. People say they want diversity, but our demonstrated behavior challenges that. We actually don't spend a ton of time when we're put on a platform like Facebook looking for that diversity. And so I would argue that we probably need to rethink social media around platforms that try to give us that diversity.
A really simple version of this would be just to send you back to Global Voices. We put out a daily newsletter that tries to get people excited about what's going on in different parts of the world from this very personal point of view. That can be the start to a much longer, more complicated version of rewiring your world and paying attention to people who you found through something like Global Voices, adding them to your social media, adding them to your media diet, and suddenly having a more global view of the world. But it is not going to happen accidentally. And it's not going to happen accidentally because it's not to the advantage of the platforms for you to use them that way. Chapter 7: Homophily and the Internet Thinking about the logic of what you said there, is the problem then, is the problem the platforms or is the problem the lack of curiosity that is sort of a innate to human beings? We're back sort of with.
Another sort of old question, I suppose. It's obviously a mix of the two, right? Homophily is probably the best demonstrated tendency in the social sciences. If you walk into a room filled with people, you are likely unconsciously to gravitate to people who look like you. I'm gonna end up sitting next to people with beards and glasses, and you ask me why I did it, and I'll say, well, they looked friendly. And what I'm actually saying is, I found my tribe. And there are just thousands of experiments that sort of demonstrate that humans do this entirely unconsciously.
So, you know, you're not going to go broke betting on homophily, but people do all the time find ways to diversify their media diet, diversify their circle of friends. Usually what happens is we make a connection to somebody and because we care about them, we care about their world. I have good friends in Pittsfield, Massachusetts, who I have been helping resettling in the United States. They're from Haiti. I pay a lot more attention to what's going on in Haiti because I think of it, you know, through the lens of their safety and their presence in the United States. And so that connection gets me somewhere.
What I'm interested in is whether we can start those connections digitally and then use digital means to sort of carry them through. And there, I do think we can ask something of the platforms. We are already sort of saying to the platforms, hey, we've essentially given you a license to print money, you make enormous amounts of money off of a product like Facebook. Wouldn't it be great if you took some basic responsibility for giving people facts rather than rumours? Wouldn't it be great if you took action on extreme speech so that people aren't using this to mobilize hatred?
I think you might make the argument that part of the responsibility in running a social media platform is to help people find a broader world, or at least support people who want to do that work in finding a broader world, and that's a core argument in Rewire. It basically says, if you wanted to do this, here is how you would go about doing it. Now, let me be the first to say that the platforms have never embraced this, and I've seen absolutely zero indication that anyone at Facebook has read Rewire as a to-do manual. But it is me sort of coming and saying, this is a possible way to build social media, and making the argument that it might be a particularly healthy and productive way to build social media. Okay, very, very interesting.
Chapter 8: Pessimistic About the Future of the Internet? To a certain extent, then, there's sort of an optimistic, positive view of the Internet sort of colliding with the realities of platform economics, I suppose. You have, of course, your own podcast, Ethan, called “Reimagining the Internet”, which we can only recommend and which has been running since 2020. Has the discourse surrounding the net on your podcast gotten darker since you began it five years ago? And actually, are you pessimistic about the future of the internet? Because, you know, you seem to have these sort of parallel things running side by side the whole time, that sort of actually, you know, you're somebody who's full of vision, somebody who's full of of the...
the realization that the internet can connect people and can be a very, very positive thing for society. But at the same time, I mean, you're also a realist. You're also very, very conscious of the reality of platforms and platform economics and the contemporary internet. So I suppose is, yeah, so my question is, are you pessimistic about the future of the internet? And has the discourse on the platform gotten darker? Sorry, on your podcast, I should say, sorry. I think the podcast is actually probably on hiatus at this point. And some of that is practical. My dear friend, Mike Sugarman, who is my producer on that show, has moved on. We worked together for five years. He is a touring musician and also a software developer, and he wants to be working on some other things. But we'd also really reached a point where I think we felt like,
we had featured a lot of solutions that we care about and that we think are really important. At the same time, we ended up feeling like those solutions that we were featuring were not always getting the attention that they deserved, or people acknowledge them as cool models for doing things, but then no one would replicate it. To give you an example of this, we featured a number of times a site called Front Porch Forum. This is a set of local newsletters for the American state of Vermont, which is a very small rural state with a reputation for
somewhere between left and libertarian politics. And despite this very rural nature, this is a podcast sorry a mailing list that does a very good job of connecting people in individual towns. And so we featured this numerous times, we've talked to people about it. We just haven't seen anyone else meaningfully try to replicate this or to scale this. And I think we're feeling this on a bunch of different fronts. I would like to do a podcast these days focused on technology and democracy. The class that I will be at UMass teaching tomorrow, my fall class is called “Defending Democracy in a Digital World”. And it looks at
media as a critical part of the democratic picture. This idea that you can't have a meaningful democracy without not just functioning news media, but functioning social media, a place where people can come together and talk about problems and solutions. So I would love to do something on technology and democracy. I would love to do something about how AI is becoming this deeply imperfect archive. Not only does it have all the problems of the internet with the lousy provenance and not a lot of clarity about who's in it and who's not in it, but AI is a form of lossy compression. Rather than having the original documents, what we have are these representations. We have this sort of way of saying, okay, we've read these
100 million documents now here's how we think language works, and somewhere encoded in that language is the knowledge that came off of the internet. But it's very hard to get back to the original documents. So there's all sorts of things that I would love to keep talking about. I'm also not convinced that that my voice is the most useful voice right now. I think I've been doing this for a very long time. There's a lot of younger scholars who are coming from different positions. Whether it's a non -american position, whether it's a non-white position. I think all of those end up being very useful.
My work these days is a lot closer to home. I'm spending a lot of time thinking about cities and climate change, and thinking about where Americans in particular are going to live as half of our country becomes unlivable due to heat and wildfires and flooding. So, you know, the next time we talk, it may be something radically different. I might be talking to you about why Duluth is a great city for people to move to. Okay, okay. Fascinating, Ethan. Yeah, then thank you very, very much, Ethan. That has been great. It was a joy to have you, and it was a fascinating discussion.
Yeah, so everybody, if you would like to learn more about ReDICo, then please go to redico.eu. You can also go to our YouTube channel to look at various presentations from our conferences, as well as educasts. There are some of the videos there among the 20 million, 20 billion, I should say, videos among YouTube. You can also join the ReDICo-Hub at hub .redico .eu, our own platform for people who are interested in digital interculturality. This platform is for scholars, but also for teachers and for those involved more practically, such as trainers, policymakers and teachers. And you can also follow ReDICo on Blue Sky, LinkedIn and Mastodon. Yeah, so thank you, Ethan, again, and thank you, everybody, for listening and, yeah, take care. And also from my side, thank you so much. I'm very much not just inspired, but I'm really.
curious of what's going to happen, and also how can we, in our different positionalities, somehow give our best to go a step towards utopia. So thank you for everyone joining. Thanks, a million Ethan, thanks. Well, it's wonderful to be with you. Thank you so much. And I really enjoyed it.