Hello and welcome to Sci-Fi Therapy, the podcast where we put our favourite sci-fi shows on the couch. In this first season, we're going to take a deep dive into Battlestar Galactica, the version from 2006. And in today's instalment, we'll be talking about the episodes Act of Contrition and You Can't Go Home. I am Mark, a theologian from Germany. And I'm Nalima, a psychotherapist based in London. And as always, the way our episodes will work is that Mark and I have watched the episodes separately, and then we pick a few things that have struck us about the episodes, and then we talk about them. Basically, you'll get to listen to what both of us talk about anyway. Before we dive in make sure you hit that subscribe button so you can follow us on this journey and if you like what you hear leave us a review to let us know what you think. So let's take a look at what happens in the episodes act of contrition and you can't go home, So, the first episode, which is titled Active Contrition, starts with a tragedy. There's a pilot, and we see this pilot, who apparently had his 1,000th landing on the flight deck of the Battlestar Galactica. And this seems to be some sort of tradition that other people celebrated, and we see him being carried around by his colleagues over the flight deck. And at one point, the deck crew organizes a wagon in which they put him in. And so he has like a little parade. And we see Kallar Thrace and Apollo painting a helmet with the number 1000 in red colors that he, the pilot, is supposed to be wearing. And then the tragedy happens. it's not a weapon that sort of goes off but it seems to be like a probe that is stacked in a rack and it manages to come loose and then the engines start and it fires directly into the small procession with the the lucky pilot and kills 13 viper pilots in just one go so we we see like uh commander adama folding up a flag and and putting it down on on a coffin and um if i may add just like in star trek they are being put in one of those starting tubes from which the viper vessels start the the uh fighting planes and so they are being probably we don't see this but probably they are being shot out into space, you know, like in every other sci-fi show that people are being disposed of in space for some reason. So this is what we see. We also see flashbacks from this point because... As there are now 13 dead pilots, the Battlestar Galactica is in desperate need of new pilots. And the choice for an instructor falls on Karathrace. So Commander Adama calls her to him and asks her if she could actually do the instructor job, the job of instructing new Viper pilots. She doesn't want to do this and in flashbacks we see why so we see her and zach the now dead son of commander adama apollo's brother apparently they were engaged um and they were planning to to get married and she was his instructor as well and we see this one scene over and over again i I think like three or four times, when she tells him that he has passed basic flight. Apparently, this one course that you have to do in order to actually be a Viper pilot. If you don't pass basic flight, you're not a Viper pilot. And she tells him that he's passed on the, quote, skin of his teeth, but he has passed. When in reality, she knew back then that he wasn't ready to be a Viper pilot. And apparently, very apparently, she now feels guilty. She talks about this to Apollo. And it becomes very, very apparent and very like sort of a problem or an obstacle when she has to deal with the first class of new Viper pilots. Those are people that are... They're civilian pilots, so they've never flown a military vessel. And they don't act like military at all. When we see them, it's like a group of eight people, I think. When we see them in the room where they get their mission instructions, the briefing room, when we see them, they are very giggly and they talk to each other. They make jokes and something like that. So it's not at all like you would imagine, like a very strict military class. And so when Kara enters, she makes them stand up and she makes them understand that they are now applying for a job in the colonial forces. And it's just not like a walk in the park or something. It's not as easy as the planes they've flown before. and so when they start when she starts training them, She tells them, don't pretend you've flown something like this before because you haven't. And because we don't have any training facilities, you will be sitting in a Viper from day one. Means now, like in 30 minutes or something. And you know the thing that you would assume that would happen actually happens of course they screw up they've never flown a viper and the task for day one is just start and land and don't get killed by doing so and of course they mess up and we see one of the pilots actually scratching like 500 meters of the flight deck trying to land and failing in the end stuff like that in the end Kara washes them out, all of them Tells the whole class, you can't make it You're not the material for Viper pilots You're done, Being asked why she's so strict By Apollo reveals that She's actually Blaming herself for The death of Zack Adama And she doesn't want to repeat that one mistake So, In order to not Taking that risk she would rather flunk the whole class and wash them out. Before she takes the risk of one of them actually failing in a very, very serious way. So Apollo doesn't agree with her and he goes to his father and tells him about it and at one point because he thinks that his father knows everything and his father knows the personal involvement of Kara Thrace and the guilt she's, or the blame she's taking for Zack's death, he lets some sentence slip that trips off his father. And then he talks to Kara Thrace. And for the first time, she confesses to him that she passed his son. And as a result, he died, even though she knew back then that he's not ready to fly a viper. And... There's this one very, very serious reaction. You can actually, you know, the camera is just focused on his face and you can see him becoming angrier. And there's all sorts of emotions in this face. Anger, sadness, guilt, rage, I would say. You know, all sorts of stuff is in this face and all the feelings like of mirror in his face. And then he tells her that she should leave his room while she still can. So you know he's really, really angry. So she then tells the whole class that they are actually still in the training program and that they should pack up or stop unpacking and, you know, getting back into their gear and then get back into the Vipers. Fast forward a bit. They are on a training mission, and suddenly a squadron of Cylon fighters shows up. Without a base ship, just the fighters, I don't know, ten or so, or eight Cylon fighters. And of course, the Nuggets are being called back. And Kara Thrace does something very interesting. She turns her ship around and tries to take on all the Cylon fighters. Which in the end. Almost gets her killed she gets hit and she has to crash land on a very inhospitable planet it's basically like Mars it's very orange there seems to be no air, no oxygen to breathe and she gets she crashes down on that planet and that's the end of this episode, fortunately the second episode is You Can't Go Home is, you know, it's a lot easier to summarize that because basically Carothrace finds an enemy Cylon fighter, enters it figures out how it works and manages to get back to Battlestar Galactica that's the whole plot basically, but what you can actually see is something very interesting because. She takes so long in finding the enemy fighter and figuring out how it works because we learn that those fighters are actually half biological beings. So she can open a door and within is some sort of animal you know it's all like like red and very gory and and there's like a brain that is sort of um that has grown into the shell of the fighter basically if you've ever um played starcraft think zerk then you have like an idea of what this is it's like a biological ship with a hard outer shell so it's it's uh yeah some sort of biological being or something it has a brain it it has its own will. Um which is probably going to be interesting later later down in the series so she figures that out and she comes back and because she takes so long um there's a very interesting moment in the episode where a clock on Battlestar Galactica that had the, I think, like a five-hour mark, because they knew how much oxygen she would have in her tank. They knew it would last like five hours, maybe five and a half. And then after five and a half hours, even after six hours, everybody assumes that she's dead. They have no chance of finding her. Rescue and reconnaissance missions fail because of the weather conditions of this Mars-like planet or moon I think it is so there's really no hope of getting her back. And the crew, basically not the crew, but Commander Adama and Apollo don't want to realize that. They don't want to face the fact that Kara is actually dead. And because both of them don't, they turn down any sort of criticism that they will get. From the crew, from Saul Tai, who's actually relieved of duty at one point, because he tells the old man that Kara is dead and you need to put your personal feelings aside and just think of the good of the fleet. And at that point, they even pulled the readiness squadron. There's like one squadron that's always watching over the whole fleet and they've pulled that in order to search for Kara Thrace, which is a really, really big risk they're taking there and so in the end the um the president flies over to uh to the battle star summons commander adama and his son and it's a very interesting scene because she talks to them like a school teacher would telling them that uh that they're basically out of their minds that they need to pull it together and that it's a very sad picture to see that military experts Like both of them are really lose every sort of perspective and professionality just because they are very, very close to a pilot that is now being assumed dead. So yeah there you have it in the end um cara is is is back um and um yeah it's it's uh of course it's like a big entrance uh she manages to um to make everybody aware that it's not actually an enemy fighter but it's her because of her flying style and because she's painted starbuck under the wings of the Cylon fighter. And the episode closes with Kara being in a hospital bed because she's hurt her knee very badly. And then Commander Adama visits her. And after a very intimate talk, kisses her on the forehead. And you start wondering what this actually means. Has he forgiven her? has he what's the situation now but this is how the episode end so what do you say want to put this episode on the couch yes. So, Mark, what do you have on your talking points? Well, I think the one overarching topic would be guilt. Because basically everybody feels guilty. Commander Adama feels guilty. Apollo feels guilty. Kara feels guilty. Like everybody is feeling guilty at some point. And then, you know I mean, it's rather obvious That I would take an interest in this But I was thinking about Funerals and services And the role of religion, In this And how mourning actually works Because, I do feel, indeed, that Most people would love to avoid the topic of death and how to deal with loss you know and so so this is this sort of struck me as as interesting and then um there's something i had to think about because you talked to me about this the other day nepotism because there's like like everybody's related to one another yeah and um i mean we even see in one flashback that that commander adama and cara thrace are walking like the the uh the grounds of like a large huge military complex before the attack of the cylons and she was zach's instructor back then and you start wondering so what is there And no other instructor in the whole colonial fleet. Like why would you put a woman that is actually engaged to one of her students in charge of that student? Isn't that like an immediate no-go? Yeah. Yeah, like a disaster waiting to happen. Exactly. And so nepotism is actually a thing, especially because it at one point means that everybody else has to stand back, and all other interests are not as important as finding Carothrace. And you wonder if they would have done this for any other pilot. Yeah, because doesn't Apollo ask as well at some point and say would you would you come and get me like what would happen if it was me. Right and adama says. Yeah of course i'd come and get you. Yeah but. Then that also makes it feel a bit like well what if it was a random person like someone who wasn't his son or his future daughter-in-law would. He then. Would he do the same thing and it doesn't feel equal. Exactly i don't know um do you remember this one scene where they had to close some sort of hatch and then several people died in a fire, and were blown out of space in the end or sucked out of space I don't, always get that confused so yeah that's a tough decision but you have to make that decision in order to save everybody else because if they hadn't closed the hatch, then half of the ship would have blown up so you know, And now they're pulling the cap, like the one force that is between the very civilian and incapable of defending themselves fleet and the Cylons. I mean, this is something that, and I feel like we're diving into that bullet point already. Yep, nepotism, here we come. Yeah, why not? I mean, this is something that sci-fi series in general usually forget, but we are talking about space here. So, this is like a 3D environment. Attacks can come from all angles, like 360 around you, you know? And so you actually need a large group of ships and like a large force in order to protect this fleet. And because they can come from all the angles, you need to have eyes everywhere. And they pull that in order to find Kara? I mean, yeah, she's important, but I mean, imagine they would have lost Commander Adama. I mean, yes, we don't want Sol Tai. Probably nobody wants Sol Tai as the new commander of the fleet. But in the event that he would have been killed at some point. It's his job. To take over isn't it i mean that's why the chain of command exists. Yeah so. Yeah i mean it's a tragedy but yeah. Yeah so basically yeah it's yeah because i mean her comeback was amazing like when she came back and i was like even i was cheering i was watching this by myself but i was cheering i was so excited but like you're saying there's that thing of like how much energy went in how many resources went in attacks would come in anywhere like could come from anywhere that's why she was in this position right it's because an attack just randomly happened while she was doing the training thing right and it's just a bit i don't know it always kind of makes me feel a bit i always get irritated by this kind of stuff like maybe it's even more than irritation it really gets to me because i feel like we're we're led to believe that we live in this meritocracy and actually then you see examples like on tv or in real life where actually it isn't about what you've done and what you've achieved that people value it's more about who you know, You know, are you related to the boss? And you actually can understand why bosses would act that way because they assume that if they know a person, because basically in like any sort of job interview, your future, maybe future boss has the task of finding out in, I don't know what, an hour maybe, whether or not you are a reliable addition to their team. Yeah. And you can't really do that. But if you know a person, then you have at least the impression that you know this person enough in order to determine, is this a reliable person? Can I work with him or not? Yeah. Up you know and so it is it is understandable that people would do this but it's not fair at all, really it isn't and um yeah i mean you you see this this like all over the place especially in politics and uh yeah it's it's it's um it's it's an issue it's definitely an issue yeah, Yeah. Because it sort of makes me wonder like what would this world be like if it was full of people that had the jobs, any job based on merit rather than based on because they know so and so or… Yeah. I don't recall if this was a YouTube video or not, but I came across some sort of piece. I don't know if it's a text, if it was a text or a video or something or a podcast, I don't really remember. But there was some guy who said that people will usually not admit this, but what they found out in several studies about careers, basically, is that um there is a certain amount of luck involved you need to be lucky right so yes you need to do um a huge amount of work if you want to be successful that is true because that's like the basis but you also need luck and people that are in in in very high places in influential places in places that that pay very well they all got lucky at some point and they will of course not admit it because luck is something that either happens to you or it doesn't because it's luck you know yeah and you can't really influence it and we like to think that that all that we have is actually what we deserve because we've worked so hard yeah but um i mean i can i can actually tell you... And I hope she's not angry with me by telling this. But my wife worked in pharmacies or used to work in pharmacies. And she's been trained as this. Actually, the job doesn't exist outside of Germany. But basically, you have to do like a three-year school training in order to work in a pharmacy and give out drugs and stuff. So, and then she decided to switch jobs and work for the pharmaceutical industry, you know, and become somebody who promotes actually drugs to either pharmacies. And she's not really visiting doctors, but you get the idea of the job, okay? So, working in the pharmaceutical industry. And, When she, I do remember this very vividly, she worked her ass off, really, learning how to do presentations, learning how to do job interviews, learning how to present, because that's what you need to do. You need to present the benefits of your product that your company produces to the future customer, you know? And that is something that you, I mean, if you've never done this before, how to sell stuff, it's really hard to learn. And she she really did well and it's like she had to do this in like two weeks because um she had two weeks before the job interview and then she she really had to have this and she's a natural she's really good yeah um and i've seen how she does it and it's it's really really really good and you love it and and i can see why people like to to listen to her and to listen to her presentations but um well then so the job interview happens and she gets the job and and we're excited and you know it's like like a celebration and it was actually was the start of of both our lives getting a lot better at that point because you know it's a better paying job and she's much happier than she was before and stuff like that you know it's like the good life the things that improve in your life yeah years later years later she talks to her recruiter. You know and asks her so just out of curiosity why did you pick me like you know you had the choice between four uh young women and from what i can see i mean the other three had like like experience in the field and they were at least as good as me i know this because they've got other jobs at other companies and it's a small world so everybody knows everybody else and and she's talked to them and and she's like so why did you pick me and not them and it turns out she was picked because her future then future boss liked her face. Wow. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. But liked her face as in found her attractive? Or liked her face as in like she looks approachable? And no no no it's uh the details are are weird much weirder than i'm willing to to describe right now on a on a podcast but it's basically um it's it's it boils down to sympathy, and and you go like yeah okay so had i worn some other color at that day i would have probably not gotten the job you know and and this is like this is the amount of luck that you need to have, or you know somebody somebody recommends you to somebody else as you just described you know the people that you know the the the networks that you have so yeah it's how i get a. Lot of new clients as referrals. Yes it's. Like you know someone saying oh actually nilima is a good therapist and you know give her a go and that feels like luck as well that someone would, like first you know have the confidence to share that they were in therapy before, and then also find me good enough that they would want to share. My details. With somebody else. It feels like a. Lot of you know things have to fall into place to, for it to work out you know. Yes and and i find this thought that you need some sort of luck both very uncomfortable and unsettling because because you can't control luck yeah but on the other hand it's also rather relaxing oh. Okay relaxing in what way. Well because there is a certain amount of of percentage of of your life that you can't have any control over. So, why bother? And I would argue that by trying to control these, what, 20% maybe, that this can actually burn you out, you know? Like, in the past, when I look back at my life, I've seen, or I've had a few rather drastic changes. I used to be a teacher. I'm now, like a theologian working for the Catholic Church. And I've had like very, very different jobs in my past. But because I'm a religious man, I'm a religious person. It's not really easy for me to do this, but I'm slowly accepting the fact that there is a percentage of my life that I can't control, and that is in God's hands. So, I can relax because God will fix it. Like, you know, if I do the 80%, he'll do the 20%. Right. Which, and this is important, don't have to turn out the way you imagine it. It's not like, okay, I want this job, I want this job, I want this job, and then God is giving it to you. It's not like, you know, he does what you want. Yeah. But you can rest assured that, at least to my experience, that in the end it'll turn out in a good way, usually. At least my life has. and, you don't have to worry about the things in your life that you can't change anyway yeah, there's actually a very old prayer I think from, I usually confuse the saint that has coined that prayer, it goes like this God please give me, the calm to endure the things that I can't change and the strength to change the things that I can and the wisdom to distinguish between the two. And this is actually, I think, the hard part, to understand where are the 20%, where are those things in your life that you don't have any control over and you don't have to bother trying to taking control over, you know? Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting because I was actually talking to my therapist about this yesterday, something similar. Because I climbed a mountain a couple of weeks ago. Oh, yes, you did. You did. I've seen pictures. There's the proof. It's not photoshopped, I promise. But that was the thing that made me sort of, I had a panic attack at the bottom, like as I got close to the bottom. Genuine panic attack i haven't had a panic attack for years but what it was was like my desire to control the outcome right like i had planned that we would do it in eight hours because that's what the internet said that everyone does it in eight hours we were already at almost 12 hours by this point the sun was setting and i was like none of this has gone according to the plan that i had. Um like things like simple things like we'd made all these sandwiches we didn't really eat them because there wasn't really a lot of places to eat like stop and eat um so all of these ideas and my imaginings and the way i had it all laid out none of this was happening hence why i was like i had the panic attack at the near the bottom because i was like none of this is going are we are we even going to make it down alive um and i was sort of talking about how do i get to a place of being able to sit with that uncomfortableness rather than feeling like i have to fix it and i have to change it and instead being like okay so it's going to be 12 hours yes the sun is setting yes we actually do have a torch in our bag um you know we have we have the tools to make it to the bottom safely even if we're way behind what i planned but there's almost something for me of like, well, I had this plan. It's not going to a plan. So everything's gone to shit rather than being like, well, so it took us 12 hours and what? We still made it to the bottom. Exactly. I wish I could have a bit more of that, being able to discern what is in my control, what isn't, and being able to be calm about the things that I can't control. But then going back to the point about nepotism, I wonder if that's where nepotism comes in. It's like, well, I don't have the courage to sit with this uncertainty of whether I'm going to get this job or not. So I'm going to ask my uncle to sort this out for me, rather than sitting with this feeling. Yes, because in contrast to what people tell you about free markets, everybody tries to control the market. Everybody tries to control the things that are uncertain. And this is one way to do it, I think. At least I see it that way. um that that um this level of uncertainty nobody really likes it and and people will try to do this yes and so nepotism actually happens as a way to try to control uh power try to control uh networks and try to control the narrative if necessary um which is something that that I've disturbingly learned just yesterday Mark Zuckerberg actually programmed a social control mechanism and network for the Chinese government apparently oh wow yeah like a surveillance software. And like social media surveillance, of course, he didn't program any cameras or something, but, you know, like algorithms that will give the Chinese authorities a hint of what their citizens are doing. And this is something that authoritarian governments will do. They will try to control everything because everything else is scary, you know. Giving people freedom and letting everything just go and flow means that there's a really, really high level of uncertainty. And people in general, like the human race in general, is afraid of the things they don't know and don't understand. Which is something that has helped us survive for the past, I don't know, several thousand years, several ten thousand years. And, um, yeah, so... It's been helpful in the past, apparently, but it also has this level of unfairness within a society because it can bolt you down to the place where you are right now with no possibility to get up. If we look at the UK government, for example, it seems like if you haven't been to, where was David Cameron? At what school? Eton. If you haven't been to Eton, there's really no way to get into the government. Yeah. Well, it's why they were celebrating the current government, because most of them have only been to state schools. Oh, right. Yeah, that was something that was different. But then at the same time, it's like, yeah, that might have been the case. But the way they're treating people right now um like we recently had a i think it was a by election or something um and reform so the really far right government got in in a couple of cities i think one or two different cities um which kind of demonstrates like how badly labor are doing so it's almost as a protest vote um and so it's like despite them coming from the same background as the majority of people in this country, they're still not able to relate to the people in this country, it feels like. So, yeah. There's the... Well, Chancellor-to-be in Germany, Friedrich Merz. Yeah, I'm very sorry. He's even harder to pronounce than Angela Merkel. And so, I think it's the Department of IT and governmental modernization that is going to a guy who's actually not a politician. He's not even a party member. Yeah, he's the CEO of a company that has run IT, basically. It's Media Markt and Saturn. I don't think they exist outside of Germany. You can buy IT stuff from them. You know, Mouses, keyboards, graphic cards, stuff like that. They're brick and mortar malls for computer stuff, basically. And um so it's it's going to to him and uh it's been praised as a good choice because it's not a politician and somebody who actually has some some knowledge of the the topic he's he's going to to deal with you know yeah on the other hand why him like he's not the only guy the only ceo in germany so why him so again friedrich merz is probably an acquaintance of him they probably have known each other for some time now yeah so again it's networks again it's it's the people you know that get you into an office and i feel like at some point we need to invite some sort of uh politic scientist to talk about the, this you know. Just talk. About how to to be in power and how how governments work. And how bad. Nepotism actually really is and if it's really a bad thing i don't know. Yeah yeah because actually maybe there's something here that like i guess with like if you're in government for example it must be so difficult to know who you can trust and who you can't exactly and so almost like well why would you not then pick your friends who you've worked with for a long time for example, but at the same time like you say it's like he's not the only person that can do this in this entire country big country yeah. Indeed indeed okay shall we jump on to the next point. Yeah let's do it. Let's start with with guilt. Uh let's. Do let's do the guilt thing um, I was wondering what to do with this because there are so many, many facets of this topic. And what I found most interesting is the aspect of perceived guilt, if you will. You know, there's people that actually should really feel guilty for what they did. And they apparently don't the most prominent uh example is of course donald trump as he is on so many things these days um but um boris johnson would be another example i think and uh even angela merkel if you will um because she had her um memoirs published, months ago, some months ago. Yeah. Yeah, and they were very long and basically said, I've done nothing wrong. Right, yeah. Well, I mean, what else would she write in her memoirs? Like, yeah, I fucked up half the time that I was chancellor. I'm sorry. Can't do that. So, yeah, and... And I guess what you can see is what guilt does to you when you feel guilty, like when you have the impression that you are guilty. Especially because in this triangle of people, you could blame like everybody. Yeah. Like just as an example. So, Zach is dead, obviously. Kara shouldn't have passed him, obviously. But you know if he had no feel for flying why did he become a member of the flying corps in the first place yeah is it maybe because he wanted to follow the example of his father who is a pilot himself um and you know and and i mean even by looking at commander adama yes he's like like a grandfather you know like like this very benevolent figure um but he's also very strict I mean, of course he's strict. He's in the military, you know. So, of course, there's really, I mean, if he says something, then this is the law and the family. Yeah. Right? So, of course, both of his sons would become Viper pilots. And even if he hadn't said, even if Commander Adama never told his sons, become Viper pilots because this is the right way for our family. Maybe Zach just wanted to become a Viper pilot because he wanted to impress his father and wanted that his father is actually proud of him. You know, something like that. And again, and then there's Apollo. I don't know why he feels guilty, by the way, but he, I mean, he's in this triangle and he could have said something and he could have told his father and he could have told Kara and he could have corrected people, you know. He could have said something like, Kara, stop being the instructor of my brother because this is going to end in failure, you know, in disaster, surely. And he didn't say anything. So, there's like a lot of blame to go around. So, how do you deal with it? What do you do with it? I don't know. Do you run into people that feel guilty for the things they've done in their lives? I mean, you're talking to me as well. I feel guilty for everything. And then don't they have, there's a, what is it? I have a couple of other Catholic friends of mine as well who talk about the Catholic guilt. And i feel like you know having been brought up muslim there's like some kind of weird islamic guilt as well um what's that like a sense of uh i don't know i generally feel guilty for most things you know if i do something i feel bad that i've done it because i feel like i'm letting someone down or you know even being a therapist it's like my mom wanted me to be a doctor, and i didn't do that i've gone a completely different way not even a completely different way but you know I've gone a different way and I feel bad for that, even though you know I'm sure if she was still here maybe she would be proud of me, but I sort of feel like the way to deal with it, For me, it was really gutting in the episode that it took for Kara to be left on this planet, to have to go through this ship's gooey veins and blood and gore, and then to make it back to the battle of Star Galactica, for then for the general to go ahead and give her that kiss on the forehead, which for me felt like the resolution of all the guilt that all of them are carrying in a way. Yeah and. It was just a bit like so what hang on so you have to go through hell and back to be forgiven or to be accepted or to be loved in a way for your guilt to then go away. This is how retribution usually works doesn't it yeah i mean you need to be, convincing and you need to really have some sort of insight into yourself so how how what what did where did i take the wrong turn you know what did i do wrong um there's an interesting theory, in in um a jewish tradition okay it's about um the idea of evil you know and and what evil really is and in the um bible texts it's usually personified as some you know as as baal or the devil or something um this is only only a picture only an image that you that the bible uses in order to make it more um more palatable you know in order to to make it more more understandable for the reader, because, the underlying idea is. Nobody actually wants to do something bad, you know? Like, I mean, of course, there's the saying that some people just want to see the world burn and those people may well exist, but I'm not talking about them. I'm talking about the average Joe that wakes up in the morning and has actually a very good idea and says, okay, let's do this because I think it's a good idea. And what evil does... You know, the thing that makes you feel guilty in the end does is it gives you a good idea and another good idea and another good idea and another good idea. And in the end of all the good ideas, you end up hurting somebody, you know. Um it's it's like like a friend of mine who um who had a girlfriend who was um, is it called in english is it called anorexic when you when you eat something and then you vomit it out again because you know that's bulimia oh bulimia thank you um who was bulimic, and uh he thought it would be a very good idea to give her a gift basket with a lot of food in it oh gosh okay it was yeah but because he didn't understand uh he only understood okay she needs to eat more right wow yeah there was no bad intention at all yeah but in the end she felt not understood by her boyfriend and i was like yeah and and you know i i know him um back then he was actually a very good friend and i thought yeah it's it's cute on one hand and it's very stupid on the other but you can see why this is not meant as an insult yeah right yeah and there's there's um i have this from from deep space nine um the father of of captain cisco who's been quoted in the series as or with the saying that the path of or the path to hell is paved with good intentions. So you do like a lot of stuff that actually feel right and then in the end you end up hurting somebody or you end up doing making a really big mistake and you wonder why because every decision was guided by a good intention so what the hell just went wrong Thank you. I guess that's what Kara's going through. Exactly. That's what I was thinking when I thought, okay, so she felt it was a good idea to pass her fiancé. Yeah, so that he wouldn't feel bad, so that he wouldn't maybe feel guilty. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And if you um if you look at people that feel guilty they do really stupid stuff at times in order to to get some sort of relief from their guilt yeah i don't know if i've um talked about this before i had a client once who um um cheated on her then husband, and uh when i met her she was the cleaning woman for his for her former husband and his new girlfriend oh wow so yeah and it's i'm laughing i know but it's not funny at all uh but this was like this was like a flagellation you know this was like her hurting herself all over again and every time she was there this was like her punishing herself she was punishing herself and this was like i don't know 10 years back or something and she was still punishing herself and she was convinced she had deserved it. Gosh this is what guilt can do to you. Yes and. Put yourself in these weird situations in order to like you say to make that feeling go away to make yourself feel better. Yeah. Or to feel like you don't deserve to be happy. Mm-hmm. People make mistakes. And what we're trying to find out as humanity is how to deal with those mistakes and how to own the consequences of your mistakes and how to deal with the feeling of guilt. And this is also something very important, which you see in a lot of TV shows. Um do people really want to change and and rectify the underlying cause of what you know they did wrong or do they just want to get rid of the feeling of feeling guilty you know and if you um i honestly i don't really know about um islam at this point or even like buddhism or hinduism but i do know uh or this is one of the the reasons why being forgiven and forgiveness as a whole is such a huge topic in christianity yeah right um and you get the idea that all of judaism is is not based on it but a lot of it uh evolves around the idea of of being like forgiven by God. You know, in a lot of Christian services, Jesus is being called the God's Lamb, which at first glance doesn't make any sense. No. But if you... Like why? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. There's a lot of weird stuff going on in Christianity. But the idea is that in Jewish tradition, back then when Jesus was alive, Yes, I know this is debatable, but not for this podcast at this time. When the texts of the New Testament take place, I should say. There was this ritual in the temple where you would sacrifice an animal, usually a lamb, in order to wash yourself and clean yourself of all the guilt that you did. Right. And by the way, the scapegoat comes from that era, The scapegoat was a goat, On which by putting a hand on his forehead You would press all your sins on that goat And then slap him on the back and send him out into the wilderness, Usually a desert And so he is the scapegoat he's actually carrying your sins and this is only only important in the context of something that you did that you can't put right again by yourself this is the point if you've killed somebody you can't just apologize to the guy you just killed yeah and so um there is sometimes the feeling that that nothing can actually wash away your guilt because what you did is so severe, so bad, you know, that nobody can forgive you. Mm-hmm. And so the question arises, so what do we do with those? And in Christianity, at least, there's the conviction that no sin is so bad that it can't be forgiven by God, at least, even if people cannot. Actually, I don't know if you know, but I have not the faintest idea how Islam deals with this. Well, there's forgiveness. There's a lot of forgiveness. Because if you're praying to God, I think with most of the prayers, you would ask for forgiveness each time. Right. With the assumption that you get forgiven if you ask for it. Okay. And then the Hajj or Umrah, the sort of mini Hajj's where you can go any time of the year to Mecca, that's also about forgiveness. So going to Hajj is a way of getting forgiveness from God. I don't know, I've always been a bit sort of weird about that because to me it feels a bit like you can do as much bad things as you want, then you go to Mecca and you're forgiven and then everything's hunky-dory. That's actually what people uh blame us for. The catholics you know yeah that's yeah because i always sort of think of the confession and you know you get forgiven and it's that for me it's a bit like but then where's the lesson like what are you actually learning are you learning to be a better person or is it more for like the daily you know like i was saying like i feel like i I carry a lot of guilt. And a lot of that comes from, you know, not having, I guess, anybody there to forgive me. And interestingly, it's something that I do in my relationship, like my current partner is, he started this thing when we started going out about, we need to forgive each other on a regular basis. So like, you know, dumb shit of like, you know, you leave out the butter and it melts. And it's like, rather than having a big fight over it, you forgive each other. And actually those small bits of forgiveness have been quite incredible for me because I'm the sort of person that will overthink it and I'll be like I'm such a terrible person because I left out the butter you know he should leave me he should be with someone who doesn't leave out butter um and all of that crazy stuff and I think it is a lot of it has come from this idea that I guess growing up Muslim God will forgive me and then when I left Islam it's like well now oh, who's going to forgive me? I have to find that within myself to forgive myself. And that's quite a difficult thing and something that we do with therapy of, if you can not necessarily get the forgiveness from your therapist, but if you can get love and empathy from your therapist and you can feel it, the idea is that hopefully then you will be able to love yourself and validate yourself in the same way that you've received from your therapist because you know what that feeling feels like now. And this is... This is actually a very important point because the first step to forgiveness is to actually acknowledge that you did something wrong, which is when you look at especially Christian and Catholic history is something that priests and pastoral workers have always been trying to do. They've always tried to make you see the mistakes that you made in order to make you feel guilty, in order to forgive you, you know, because they knew you needed forgiveness, but you can't actually value and appreciate forgiveness if you don't feel guilty at all. Yeah. Wow and um so this is actually the first step you need to understand okay so i i really fucked up i really um made a mistake and i really did something wrong and this is like this is so big, um that that i need somebody who's bigger than me who's larger than me to forgive me also i think what, a religion can provide I'm not saying it's the only thing that can provide this but what religion amongst other things can provide is um. An idea of what is right and what is wrong you know like okay so you did something wrong according to who right yeah like for example uh i mean since you picked it leaving the butter out um i mean you could argue and i know people that have argued about this um there's there's families if you put the butter into the fridge that's actually like like a sacrilege okay so you don't do that because then yeah butter gets gets gets stiff and you can't use it and you destroy the toast because you know um and this is like um so so so what's the what's the standard what is the um uh the the the the the background you, provides an idea of what is right and what is wrong. Obviously, killing somebody is a thing that is wrong, I guess. But again, if you look into other societies, like if you look and other even imagined societies, let's take the Klingons, for example, right? So, killing somebody is among you know, under certain circumstances is really not a problem. Right? If you challenge a superior because he was acting cowardly and you killed him for his job, then yeah, that's all right. And nobody will actually think any less of you or will charge you with anything. And you don't have to feel guilty. Right? And I don't have a good example in societies on earth, but I mean, you've traveled more than I have, and you know as well as I do that something that is completely all right in the UK will be frowned upon or even straight out insult people in Vietnam or in Bangladesh. Yeah. Right? Yeah, exactly. so. This is this is like you need a canvas um that that gives you an idea so what is wrong and what is right and this is. Something that religion. Can provide like a a common understanding so this is okay and this is not. I do think like that's for me that's the purpose of feeling guilt like in a non-religious way for me it's like the reason we feel i i feel the reason i feel that we feel guilty or we feel guilt as the emotion is because it then teaches us that we've done something bad yeah in the hope that we won't then necessarily do it again right so like for example if you don't feel guilty for killing somebody then either it's okay in your society or you're a psychopath um, Whereas like if you do feel bad for something, it's like, you know, you've done something that isn't good. And if we use the butter thing as like a small, you know, this is, you know, something that people are probably people do on a regular basis. So it's something that's not, you know, of any consequence, but you might still feel a bit bad for it because, you know, the effect that it will have on the other people in the home or the effect it will have on someone, but it's not going to like, you know, like make a difference. you're not going to go to jail for it. But I think it's still good to feel that badness, that guilt in order to then improve your relationships. Does that make sense? It does. It definitely does. And also, if you just take, for example, if you don't have, like an underlying structure that gives you an idea of what is right and what is wrong, then the only thing you can actually relate to for this purpose is other people's feelings, but what if they are fucked up yeah you know like and we do see this like do i have to feel guilty because somebody else feels offended yeah exactly yeah just just because i made a joke And I mean, if you then have somebody to deal with that is usually offended or very easily offended, you know, then is this still something I should feel guilty about? Or should I just tell them, you know, just grow up and, you know, learn how to deal with it? Yeah. Yeah. Right? So, I can actually understand why you would need some sort of standard to refer to. Yeah, I promise you do. Yeah. Yeah, I see what you mean. Like, it's not, maybe it's not entirely reliable if you're relying on just a person, like a parent, for example, to sort of say to you, this is like, what's the example? We we let my nephew like not hug people if he doesn't want to which i think is great because. When. I was younger i was made to feel guilty if i didn't want to hug someone. And not. Because you know they'd done anything bad to me but i just didn't want to because there was something about them that made me feel icky. Um And so it's that it's like actually well why does that person get to decide what i should and shouldn't do surely it should come from me if i feel comfortable. In that situation or not yeah there you go there you go and uh exactly and and so it's it's really helpful to have like um uh i feel like i'm repeating myself here over and over again but it's very helpful to have to have uh like a general understanding of it you know yeah and just not based on on society which is also very very important because those things change of course of the time you know what was a crime 80 120 200 years ago is not a crime anymore and we have obviously other crimes now um but um but then again like if you have like like a basic understanding that has even prevailed throughout all, I mean, the societal changes, I mean, the mother of all arguments here is like the Nazi era. Right? Where a whole society was convinced that killing Jewish people and people with disabilities and homosexual people is actually a good thing. And just because a whole society is convinced that something is right doesn't make it right. Yeah. Yeah. You know so um i would argue that it's actually helpful to have like a a moral code that transcends the um the current times or the current feelings of of a society that is more and bigger and has standards and and ideas that that are larger than just the, uh the things that that are important for a certain society right now. Yeah if. This makes sense. It makes a lot of sense i'm like this is a massive massive point um and also i feel like this links quite nicely to the religion and mourning of like if we use religion as that sort of that code of conduct that sort of moral um code it kind of as long as it doesn't become sort of you know your religion is better than my religion kind of attitude but instead is something a bit more actually let's like the 10 commandments you know i feel like that's the most simplest way of looking at things yeah and yet we seem to have sort of really like fallen away from it um. And even the 10 commandments are something that you could actually argue about you. Know because. They are clearly written in a time where it's actually very important not to steal the cows and the goats of your neighbor. And the reason the Ten Commandments focus on being faithful to your partner is very apparently based in a society where when a woman didn't have a husband, she was actually completely lost and and couldn't and wasn't was unable to sustain herself and her living because they were dependent on men as the uh the people that would um give them shelter give them food give them money you know because a woman back then couldn't work wasn't allowed to work yeah, You know, apart from jobs that were frowned upon as, for example, a sex worker or something. So, this is, you could even argue that those are not like eternal rules, eternal laws. I don't know, I feel like the faithful thing is still eternal. And also, like, you know, if I had goats, don't fucking steal them. True, true. But even like the faithful thing, because I'm thinking even if you think of like polyamory, for example, it's like that's not about cheating on your partner. It's actually about having incredible levels of communication and you're faithful not to just one partner, but you're faithful to several partners. But that's actually what I mean. The underlying principle is not be faithful. I mean, it is be faithful, but it doesn't focus on watch out whom you're having sex with. Right. The underlying principle is be faithful, is talk to your partner, be transparent. Yeah, but that's not the text of the Ten Commandments, is it? Right. Yeah, I guess not. Yeah. Well, that's what we need to change it to. Let's update it. Well, that's what Jesus tried to do, you could argue. I mean, there's like a big poster in my office and it has this one text quote from the Holy Bible. And where Jesus gets asked what the most important rules of the Bible, of the law, meaning the Old Testament back then, really are. And then he says, so the most important is love thy God. And the second is love thyself as you love everybody else as you love yourself. So, this is like, these are principles. The principle is love. And if you follow the principle to the end, then you will always respect the feelings of others. And then you will try to establish a good and respectful relationship to other people. And then you will respect your own needs because you have to love yourself before you can love everybody else, you know. So, this is like a good thing. so. Then mark tell me if we use that principle with. Cara what. Would she have done instead what would she have done differently. Well i would probably argue that um she would i mean she did love um, she did love her her fiancé so I mean she would I guess if you if you if you, It kind of cornered me there, to be honest, because if you argue with love, you know? Yeah. I mean, she acted out of love. She did that. Yeah. Right? But, but, at that point, she probably neglected the love to her professional self. Yeah. This is however all very very very theoretical because she did it because she loved him and she knew better back then and she doesn't know better right now so yeah it's really hard i mean if you if you follow those principles yes it's a good idea but then again let's be honest we are humans will still make mistakes yeah yeah this is what i was trying to describe um like a few minutes ago that even if you try to do the right thing you can sometimes end up yeah having done a really really bad mistake yeah not out of stupidity but because of good intentions and because and this is what i'm arguing because that is human nature we will end up making mistakes even though we try to avoid them at any cost this is the reason we need retribution and we need forgiveness because we will end up doing bad things even though we don't want to, and this is the promise that religion actually has yes i god will forgive you because i know you're human and you try to be good and you fail because you're human. Do you think God will forgive Trump? If he asks for forgiveness. But Trump will probably, when Trump dies, he'll probably, I don't know, I really don't know if he's going to heaven or not. But should he go to heaven, he'll probably tell God that. It's all a bit bland and it needs more bling. So, yeah, but it's the same question. Will God forgive Hitler? Will God forgive Stalin? Will God forgive Pol Pot? And the answer is, you know, what Catholics usually answer to that is, we fear that hell exists. So we assume hell exists, but we hope it's empty. Because in the end, and this is what we believe, in the end, when you die, you talk to God and, And then you get a chance to ask for forgiveness for what you did. Yeah. But I guess that's assuming that you have the humility to ask for forgiveness. You have the humility and the self-awareness to recognize that you may have done something bad. This is like a huge topic, the question of forgiveness, the question of how does it really all work. And what does Jesus say about this? What do the Holy Text say about this? And surprisingly enough, Jesus didn't talk about the afterlife as much as we think he did. And so, we don't really know. Yeah. You know, there's not like a very vivid picture of what's going to be there after death. And so we assume that there's like a last uh judgment over your life yeah but then again if you um if you look at martin luther he had this one big problem where he asked okay so if humans are flawed and even if we want to do the right thing we end up doing the wrong thing how can we, prevail in the face of a almighty and perfect being? Like in comparison to God, you know, what do we have going for us? So, the only logical answer to this is God has already forgiven us because we are what we are. And there's no point in asking for forgiveness Because we've already been forgiven, So, this is the solution that he has, right? And it's an interesting solution, but, you know, it's helpful for people that really suffer from the feeling that they can't live a good life because they're humans. But it's really, really not a good idea for a society because if there's no need to ask for forgiveness, then, well, I can do whatever the fuck I want. Exactly. Exactly. Right so yeah um yeah this is like this is a huge topic um since since i've seen uh i've watched the um uh the whole series like years back and you haven't i can tell you this this topic will get back we'll get back to this topic definitely okay yeah we'll come back to it and um and again we should this this is something else we maybe could have a guest for the whole question of of um so what about hitler and god and what about trump and and all the um and and putin uh yeah as well like when they die what happens do they yeah will they get forgiveness is because um the the the The underlying question is not, will Trump get into heaven? I mean, you know, if God forgives him, so be it. You know, what do we care? But if Hitler goes to heaven, then what about all the millions of people that he murdered? Like, did they die in vain? Is this not important? Is there, is there, their longing for and their, um yeah no longing is the right word i think um and they're right for for um putting things right again. Revenge. If you will. Yeah you. Know um or justice is a better. Word i think. Um what about that. Yeah like. It feels it feels wrong like you just said it feels wrong that that i mean i can live the most horrible life imaginable. And then in. The end after death I meet God and say yeah I'm sorry. I mean you would have. You probably would have be really really and feel really really really sorry for what you did and God would probably know if you were lying. But. Still it feels it kind of runs against the feeling of justice that we as humans have. Yeah that's it. Yeah so um you just uh already sort of uh slid into the last point about funerals and and how to mourn. Yeah that sense of you know having do we need well i guess my question would be do we need religion to help us to figure out how to mourn um considering as well you know you're talking to somebody that is you know i love bereavement therapy um if that is okay to love but i really enjoy working with grief and loss um and i do feel like most therapy is about loss of some kind right and so i would say i don't need religion for it but i think there is something about um like you're kind of saying with the the moral code as well there's something about having structure to such complex emotions like guilt and loss and grief that perhaps it does help to have some sort of guidance. So, how does therapy usually work in these fields, like when dealing with loss and mourning? Well, you've got, I can't remember who it is, because we don't use this as person-centered therapists, but you've got the grief cycle, the whole, you know, you move from anger and all of that kind of stuff. But as person-centered therapists, we don't work in a structured way. We work with whatever it is that comes. So, you might have sadness, you might have anger, you might have um you know confusion what is it you're arguing for the person you know i'll give you my life if you give theirs back sort of thing um and all that stuff comes up and it's for me it's always just been about sitting with that and also that you know having lost you know my parents from when i was quite young i also sort of recognized that it doesn't necessarily go away and i think similar to guilt i think sometimes for some people the pain is so big they just want it gone, and i don't feel like grief is something because for me i feel like grief is an expression of love, and in the same way that i don't think we ever stop loving people um i don't think it's possible to just be like you know unless you really even if you hated your family or you're the person that died, that I think they still stay with you somehow. And so I don't think you can sort of forget them or they're gone forever. I can't remember who it is that does it, but there was someone that did a drawing of how we grow around grief. So it never disappears. It's there. And at the beginning, it's massive. But then as we grow around it, the grief becomes smaller, but it never disappears. Right. I think this is one of the most important things that you have to understand about grief, that you will always carry it with you. Like the memories to the memories about the person that you are um that you have lost, and um i would i would actually agree with you you don't need religion to deal with with grief. Um because in for in order for religion to actually be helpful for that you really need to believe in what religion tells you if you don't believe in an afterlife religion is not helpful at all really it's not that helpful not not at all but it's not that helpful um, and and you know most people you know in my line of work i do funerals um and what most people when i ask them because this is like the last question i ask them i usually visit them um The people that tell me something about the deceased person, and so they tell me about their lives, and they tell me about all the things that are important at this very moment. And the last question, because I have some standard questions I usually ask because, Some people will talk about a dead person and never stop. And some people will tell you nothing at all. Gosh, okay. Yeah, like, I mean, imagine a good friend of yours, okay? So, imagine one of your friends has died. And now I'm planning the funeral for your friend. And I tell you, so tell me something funny about the life of your friend. And your mind goes blank. Right? Yeah, yeah. It's like, be funny. And the last thing you can think about is a joke. Absolutely, yeah. Right. So, I have some standard questions that actually help trying to overcome this blockade. And one of the last questions that I have is, so, if you would want to wish something to this person, you know, if you had a wish for this person, what would that wish be? What would you wish for? And they say, yeah, well, I'd like them to be happy. I'd like them to meet their dead husband or wife. I hope they are in heaven and are playing, I don't know, football or something, you know, because they loved that when they were still alive. Stuff like that. Right. And so, this is sort of a bit of watered down version of the hope that there's something afterlife. You know, for most people, it boils down to, I will see all the people that I loved when I was still alive in the afterlife. We don't know if this is what happens But it's still The conviction that there is something After death, So yeah A lot of people share this But not everybody And if you don't have that at all, In one version or another, then religion will probably not help you with grief. Yeah. What religion does provide you with is tradition and rituals. And rituals you actually need in the moment of the funeral itself. I mean um when we when we watched the um uh the episode act of contrition and we see this funeral service there is um there is this one flashback to the funeral of zach yeah and there's like like five people with guns and rifles and they do these these i think it's three shots, they fire three shots don't they, and this is something they do with or on, military funerals I don't know if they do that in Germany they do this in the United States I think yeah. Well you see it a lot in movies. Yeah you do you do, And I always found this very weird. Like, what do guns have to do with a dead person? I mean, yeah, they can't shoot people, but why would you include them in a funeral service? Like, just because they're part of the military. Yeah. True. The answer is, it's really not important. um i could read um the telephone book uh to our younger listeners this is what you used before google to find out how to how to call people um, it's when you think about it it's really a weird concept that all the names and all the telephone numbers of all the people in a city would be in a book publicly available to everybody i. Used to i used to actually work for that service though. Oh really that. Was one of my jobs when i was like at college and um it was called 192 director inquiries and so you'd call up 192 you dial 192 to get someone's phone number if they were in the phone book. Right um. Or like the number of a business this is before google i was google check it out. Okay the thing we we learned today nelima was google an analog very british version of google okay um so um i mean i i could read any sort of text that's what i'm trying to say and people wouldn't really care because all they do is is mourn and be be sad you know that's their job and they don't really some people really care some people care about what music is being played or what texts are being read but it's really not um the majority the majority of people and this is what i usually tell them, Your job at that day is being sad, okay? It's mourning. That is what you do. Right. Leave the rest to me, you know? I know how to deal with a coffin. I know how to deal with an urn. I know how to deal with what texts to recite, what prayers to pray. And I do the summary of their lives, right? I love that, though, because it's like you're giving permission that they can just be, they can feel their feelings, which will help them get through this process a lot easier, rather than getting distracted by admin stuff. With really Catholic families, you still see that they try to have like a real service, you know, and everybody gets a book with all the music and all the songs and they try to sing. And you know and and uh usually in in christianity as in in all religions you have like those those answering prayers you know i say something and then people answer yeah which is something that most people really don't know anymore and yeah so i don't expect it i just include those prayers because they sort of from a christianity point of view belong into such a service right but um in really catholic um families um for them it's still really important so they try to be part of the ritual yeah which is fine i mean you know um whatever is is is good whatever helps whatever is is appropriate but um i i really don't try to tell people um that they need to do this, Because why? You know. Again, the only thing that they really, really need to focus on is their mourning. And so rituals are actually a very good way to help people mourn. Because, you know, there's something happening. Something that feels appropriate. Something that has to do with the deceased. And and you feel safe because there's somebody in front of you that actually knows what's going to happen okay so he knows what to do what that actually is is not as important i would argue right the main thing is something is happening that feels like an appropriate way to say goodbye to a dead person that that's the important thing everything else nah you you focus on being being sad yeah crying you know yeah. Well you've reminded me of something that i talk to my clients a lot about with endings because a lot of therapy is about ending. Right um. Because if you have a good ending it kind of sets you up, really well which is why i say it's really nice that you give people permission to mourn to feel this because it will make that process so much easier yeah um and esther perel talks about it but also it was in star trek um and i think esther perel did it after star trek so i think they're first um i don't know if you remember this episode where um dr basheer breaks up with somebody, and they i think they go to riser and they do like an ending ceremony yeah. Yeah i i remember this. Do you remember this and i found it fascinating with lita by the way oh was that i couldn't yeah the double girl that that that later on um gets. Married to um to to quark's brother. Oh gosh yeah i forgot about that um and i thought that was brilliant because esther perel says the way that Esther Perel explains it and I think maybe they explained it like this in the episode you know you have all of these ceremonies for like beginning new things but you don't have ceremonies and rituals for ending things and it's really important that we do have these rituals and I did it when my ex-husband and I separated we had an ending ritual just the two of us and it made it really like something that is that was so painful you know to separate out of a marriage is such a it was such a painful experience you know i'm sure i can say that for the both of us um and so it was incredible to then have this ritual that we created together to signal the ending of our relationship and i think it's made it easier then to now be friends with each other, and to have a different relationship now because we put a really clear loving ending to our marriage. And so that's why I totally agree with you that I think having rituals for something, for these big events in our lives is really important. That's what sacraments actually are, which is a term that you will probably only find in Christianity. But those are basically, you could translate them as holy moments. And the number of sacraments has actually changed over the times, according to what was important at that time for a society. And usually marriage is one and of course Holy Communion has always been one you know certainly and all the other. If somebody gets baptized, you know that is one and the others I can't translate right now so it is you know those very very important moments become sacraments and those moments are ritualized and are being celebrated and the only one that is is dealing with saying goodbye and ending things is of course, a funeral yeah which is interestingly enough not a sacrament, oh okay that's interesting yeah it's not it's uh uh sacramentalia which means like a very small sacrament or something that looks like a sacrament but isn't okay um and i always found this found this interesting it's it makes sense in in um christian theology you know because death isn't something that you should focus on but rather the life after after the life you know after death right Right. Yeah. But, you know, I think that this could very well, something that could be bigger. I always find this, I mean, it's okay. You shouldn't mourn. And you shouldn't prolong this ritual of a funeral longer than it needs to be. Yeah. But it's usually half an hour. And I'm usually... There are moments when I think, okay, so I have like five to seven minutes to summarize up a life that has lasted for 80 years. Wow. You know, you don't really do it justice. But then again, it's not my job. It's the job of the people that knew the person, you know. Yeah. And they will remember that person for a long time. And it's interesting that you do that, though. Because in Islam, we don't do, you don't sum up someone's life in that way. Like the imam wouldn't do that. And with my parents, we didn't even do the funerals at the mosque. I don't think we did it at home. Right. And I think like someone says a few words, but it's quite generic, quite more about, like you say life after death but it's not really even celebrating the person's life or anything. Yeah well this is the consequence when you try to convey the idea of an afterlife you know, but actually I don't think right now I would have to look into it but I don't think there's really a good reason why we shouldn't do more Right? Yeah, yeah. But yeah, yeah. So this is what you usually, what it usually comes down to. So, yeah, that's that. Okay. I think we've come to an end of the points we wanted to talk about, don't you think? I think so. Right. Then let's move on to what we've learned. Mm-hmm. Right okay so nelima what are we taking away from this episode. Um i think for me what i'm taking away is like i think there has to be there's something about like carrying guilt i feel like guilt is quite an important emotion and sometimes it doesn't get it gets really bad press um you know we we do a lot of bad things out of a sense of guilt um and i'm i think the thing i'm going to take away is like actually as i've always sort of joked i carry this guilt around with me, um and actually i think having carried and sat with that guilt it's not like it um it doesn't feel heavy it doesn't feel bad or onerous it's more that it's helped me in my decision making process and to ensure that the decisions that I'm making are coming from that place of love, that place of self-love, the love of others, and not from a sense of guilt. Not because, you know, if I do this, will it make someone feel bad? But instead doing things because it feels good to me and to the people around me. Right. Yeah, thanks for that, Mark. I think for me, and I feel like we've talked about this before, the importance of rituals is something that I'm looking at. It's not really prominent in the episode at all, but I think regarding to what we've talked about, rituals can actually help you move a step forward, you know, like you described, ending a relationship, saying goodbye to a loved one, dealing with loss. Yeah. You know, those things, rituals can, I mean, they don't make things go away. But I was just thinking that there's a ritual for retribution, for forgiveness, you know? Confession, which actually is a sacrament. And this is, you know, it's, by the way, we don't call it a confession. Well, a lot of my colleagues don't call it confession anymore, but sacrament of forgiveness. Oh. Which makes the purpose more transparent. Yes, it does. There you go. So, this is something that helps you finding new ways of dealing with your guilt. You know? Yeah. Yeah. And so, those rituals can actually help you find new ways, new ways forward, new views, new perspectives, and maybe just a way how, you know…, To deal with the things that you have to carry with you for the rest of your life. Right? Yeah. Like, for example, your ex-marriage will always be a part of you. Yeah. Even though it has ended. This experience will always be a part of you. But it has ended. So this is like something that will always Form your opinions And will always be with you And will always influence what you think What you feel How you deal with people How you deal with your current partner Etc, etc, etc, But it's not that It's, you know It didn't drive you away from a new partner It didn't make you incapable Of. Entering a new relationship Right? So and i would argue from what you've just told me that that um uh the the ritual was one step and it was a hip a helpful step exactly there you go so um rituals are actually rather important and so is forgiveness yeah um and and we can see this um in in the episode um, you mentioned it when Kara and Komar Radama, talk to each other in the end, when she's lying in the hospital bed, that. It feels like relief. Actually, it does feel like relief, you know, and everything is like falling off of them. So, yeah, there you go. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm taking away that, you know, even if you try to do the right thing, nepotism can happen and that you try to do good things and that human nature will get in the way of this. And that you probably need some sort of forgiveness from whoever in order to survive because you will screw up stuff this this seems to be like a constant in human nature we will screw up stuff yeah and and uh it's probably a good thing if we start to accept it Yeah. I think so. Yeah, there's got to be a new line rather than live long and prosper, like live long and screw it all up. Yeah. Or screw up and live with it, probably something like that. Yeah. Okay. So, I think we've come to an end, haven't we? I think so right okay so then on this note and on this uh these new things we've learned about ourselves and the human nature in this case we'd like to end um we hope that you've that you've enjoyed listening to us and to this newest and latest episode take care of yourselves and each other. And always remember, the Cylons look like us now. Until next time on Sci-Fi Therapy, so say we all. So say we all.