Hello, and welcome to Sci-Fi Therapy, the podcast where we put our favorite sci-fi shows on the couch. In this first season, we're going to take a deep dive into Battlestar Galactica, the version from 2006. I'm Nalima, a psychotherapist based in London. And I'm Mark, a theologian from Germany. The way our episodes will work is that Nelima and I have watched the episodes separately, and then we pick up a few things that have struck us about the episodes, and then we talk about them from our respective point of views. In today's episode, we'll talk about the very first episode of the first season, titled 33. Before we dive in, make sure you hit that subscribe button so you can follow us on this journey. And if you like what you hear, please leave a review to let us know what you think. So as usual, we'll start with a short summary of the episode. And in 33, the episode starts with a shot of very, very tired people. And there's a reason for that. The Cylon fleet was able to track the human fleet. And as we come to learn in this episode. They jump, like the human fleet, they jump away and after 33 minutes, the Cylons will follow and start attacking them, which in turn means that at the point the episode starts, all of humanity basically didn't get any sleep for five days now. So, after 237 jumps, they still haven't found any sort of sleep, and they haven't found a way to escape the Cylons. And... So the big topic of this episode, like the very obvious big topic, is sleep deprivation and what it does to the people. We can see the crew struggling with it, like, a lot. Everybody looks like zombies, to be honest. We learned that Sol Tai and the old man switch places in getting rest, but only for 10 minutes. So what basically happens is... Shit nelima i do have a problem shit damn it go on what do you i did take notes of the summary yeah but what i failed to do and i'm learning this at this moment is i should have done a dry run of the summary i'm very sorry oh i see i didn't do that and so my my mind is kind of what's next what's next what's next i was yeah i was i was hoping that those bullet points that i had would actually suffice, but it seems they don't. Why? Do you feel like something's missing? No, it's just like my mind doesn't know what to say next. Okay. Okay. Take a deep breath and start again. So, as usual, we'll start with a short summary of the episode. And the title 33 is actually indicative of what the episode is about, because we learn in this episode that the Cylons have been able to track the human fleet. After 33 minutes, no matter where they jump, no matter where they try to escape to, the Cylons will be upon them, attacking them with everything they have. So after 33 minutes, there's a jump. All the Viper pilots have to start their engines and have to start their birds and have to be out there in order to repel the Cylon attack. And everybody's actually really, really, really on edge while at the same time being really, really, really tired. We learn that after 237 jumps, they have been awake for five days or 130 hours. So the obvious thing to talk about or the obvious topic of this episode is actually sleep deprivation. It's some sort of psychological warfare, it would seem, and what it does to the people. We can see people making mistakes. We can see people not paying attention to their job. We see in the Libra, I don't think it's called OPS, but like the bridge of the Battlestar Galactica. Yeah. There is a name for it. Well, when they call it, it's Galactica Actual, but well, let's call a bridge for the moment. Okay. You can see officers sleeping in their seats and in their chairs, and so everybody is really, really, really tired and exhausted. So, this is kind of the state of affairs we're in at this episode, and now stuff happens. We learn that in one of the civilian ships, the Olympic carrier, there seems to be a scientist who manages to contact President Roslin, or actually his aide, and tell them that he knows something about how the Sirelands were able to attack all the planets and the colonies, And we're able to overcome the defense mainframe, which is something that Gaius Balter hears because he is sitting in the same ship and room where the president resides. And of course he starts panicking while he does that while he's starting to panic he's also again having hallucinations of the woman in red talking to him about this and telling him that he needs to repent in order to get rid of this threat to himself and his eventually his life basically, and that he he will have to do something about it because if he doesn't then what will get out that he's actually the traitor and that he made possible the attack on the colonies. They start to think about a plan on how to get rid of the silent fleet and how to escape them for good. But before they're able to really implement it, after one jump, they lose a ship. So what we have to imagine is that before they jump, they count every ship. After they jump, they count every ship again. and after, I don't know, the 240th jump or something, one ship is missing and it's called the Olympic Carrier. 1,300 people on the ship and it's gone missing. But what also happens is that after 33 minutes, nothing happens. So it seems that the Olympic Carrier is actually the ship that the Silas have been trekking. So, everybody is still on edge. And after a certain amount of time, roughly an hour, I think, the Olympic carrier suddenly appears. And they start talking to the fleet and tell them that they managed to escape and that the Cylons simply broke off the attack, which sounds fishy and is confirmed when the human fleet realizes that there's atomic bombs on the Olympic carrier. So, of course, everybody believes this ship is being infiltrated by Cylons and they're using it like a floating bomb. And it's a rather dangerous thing that you could have this potential threat in your fleet. The Olympic carrier starts ignoring every sort of contact or attempt to contact them after that. They can't explain how they did escape the Cylons, like how they really managed to escape the Cylons. And in the end, Apollo and Carithraeus are forced or ordered to destroy the Olympic carrier. So, which is what they do in the end. They fire on the Olympic carrier and blow it up. After that, the fleet jumps again, and there's no Cylons, so they really, really managed to escape them, and obviously the Olympic carrier was the ship that the Cylons have been tracking. It is very interesting to see how Gaius Balter manages to deal with this situation, since... The scientist that is about to reveal him as the traitor to the colonies. He was on the Olympic carrier, and he's being blown up with the ship. And I think this should be something, or this could be something we could talk about in the next bit, because he has a very interesting conversation with the woman in red, who asks him to repent his sins in order to get rid of the threat, namely the scientist on the ship and the ship itself, of course, which is probably, if it manages to reach the human fleet, trying to blow up the human fleet. It is also very interesting to see how different people in the military deal with the stress being brought upon them, with being unable to sleep. For example, all the pilots or a lot of the pilots get stims stimulants like drugs in order to still function and of course there's there's all sorts of fighting going on people being on the edge and really not able to to control their emotions and you can also see what happens if if the chain of command really you know if it breaks down it doesn't in this instance but you can see like very different role models. You can see how Apollo acts, you can see how Sol Tai acts, and you can see how the old man acts. Okay. So this is basically what happens. We see a very tired, very exhausted crew being forced to decide whether or not to blow up a civilian ship, which is probably the reason that the Silas were able to track the human fleet. So let's put this on the couch? Sounds like a plan. Okay. All right, Nalima, let's talk about the episode. So, what do you have on your list? So, I was wondering why 33 minutes? Like, somebody does actually ask the question, and I was also wondering exactly why is it 33 minutes? Is there some sort of theological reasoning for that? The other thing I had on my list was what is the point of tracking the number of people that is alive and maybe we could sort of figure out what that might mean and i also wanted to talk a little bit about gaius and that sense of god is watching over you, god has a plan. Right that. Sort of thing. Right okay well i obviously had the the question for the psychotherapist what does sleep deprivation do to you and how bad is it really and also i i don't think you can actually stay awake for five days in a row and i would i would like to talk about roles of a leader like how to be how to be a good leader and if there's something that you can actually state as, these are good things to adapt as a leader in general. So, you know, what sort of role is probably good, especially in such very tempting and very demanding situations? Right. Okay. Okay. So, anything you'd like to start with? Why don't we start with God has a plan Okay, right. So, since that was your point, fire away. I guess for me, it's like, not that I'm a scientist or anything, but I guess being a bit more on the agnostic scale, I find this idea of God has a plan quite troublesome. And I guess also being a therapist who believes in change, and if we want to change, we can change. And I guess people would argue that well that was God's plan was that you would change but for me I really struggle with that sense of we don't have control over ourselves or. You know what will be will be feels quite powerless sometimes and other times it can also be quite empowering in the sense of so my theory of therapy we have a concept called the tendency to actualize and that is something that is innate within all humans and we don't you don't have any control over it and all you can do is you create the environment that will be best for it so a non-judgmental empathic compassionate environment and then the tendency to actualize will flourish towards whatever that person's idea of growth and change is. So not even what my idea of change is, but what that person's idea of change is. So for me, it's a constant battle of like, but I want to have control because I want to do the best by this person and give them the best. And also I don't have control, not necessarily because I believe God has a plan, but it does sort of feel a bit like that of, well, this person has a plan. And just because their idea of what is good for them is different to mine doesn't mean that mine is a better idea than what they have. Right. Yeah. Could you just... For everybody who doesn't know the concept, elaborate a bit on this tendency to actualize. What does that actually mean? So the tendency to actualize is that each person has a tendency towards, let's call it growth, but it's not the best word, maybe a better word. So each person has a tendency towards expansion, to becoming a better version of themselves, in quotation marks. Really and i say that yeah because it's not it might so one of the examples that we were given during training was you might have someone who grew up in a community where everyone is out for themselves that person then kills a whole bunch of leaders to then become leader of the pack and has full control so that would be them working towards expansion it wouldn't be something that i would think is okay to murder people to get right you know but in that environment in order for that person to survive and grow and thrive that's what they needed to do and that is their tendency to actualize at work so in this you. Would argue that that it's not in the human nature to just sit and and endure. Yes actually right unless well this is a thing though unless it's unless that is what that person needs to do like if that is the way that they will expand and grow then that's what they will need to do the other bit though the other part of it is that it doesn't necessarily mean that we will just expand expand expand all the way through our lives some people will only expand up to a certain point because that is like, we all have our limits. And so even to self-awareness, there are limits because self-awareness, so that is kind of what the tendency to actualize does is it, I guess it helps us to become more self-aware or it works with our desire to become self-aware. But self-awareness, as you know as well, self-awareness requires vulnerability. And sometimes we get to a point where we're like, you know what, I'm done now. This is as vulnerable as I want to be in this relationship. This is as much as I want to know about myself I don't want to know anything more and so that's when the expansion will sort of stop and people will endure because that's as far as they want to go and. If people feel they can't really expand and they can't really do anything but they they have the the impression that they should like for. Example if. You if you experience some some traumatic episode in your life. I don't know, something that everybody would say you should really do something about, you know, getting unemployed, for example, you know, being fired from your job. And you feel you can't do anything because the economy doesn't allow for somebody with your training or with no training to really do anything. But you can't afford to have new training or sometimes you just don't have the mental capacity to do that. Is that the point where people start feeling pain and need your help because they feel stuck? Yeah, exactly. Right. Because I guess, yeah, because that's also like the, like with the tendency to actualize in that context, it's like you're trying to change something, but almost like there's resistance against that change. Right. And so what therapy does is provide a space where you can explore the resistance to then, like I was saying, to give your almost like if you imagine the tendency to actualize as a plant and therapy is the soil. So the therapeutic space is the soil. So we're sort of removing all of those barriers, the hurdles, the resistance to change in order for the tendency to actualize to go where it wants to go. Does that make sense? It perfectly does. In my training, we described it a bit differently as exploring the fields of your mind or exploring the fields of your life where you can actually do something. You know? Oh, okay. Like expand your options. I love this because you might not know this. There's a prayer. And I keep forgetting by whom. it's some Catholic saint, I really don't know, who coined this phrase the first time. I need to look it up. And it goes like this, Dear God, please give me the strength to endure the things that I can't change, and the power to change that I can change, and the wisdom to distinguish between the two. Acknowledging the fact that there are things you can't change. You yourself can't change them. At the moment, we really can't convince Putin to stop the Ukrainian war. We can't do it. So we will have to deal with it. And we will have to look somewhere else in order to, to work on our lives or to do something, you know, to satisfy the need to have the feeling of control and to do something. You know. And there's stuff that you can do something about. I mean, you know, it's actually in your hand or your hands on how you approach your environment. And if you go out the door and look groomy and grumpy, you know, and rainy day and everything, or if you choose to actually approach you know your environment with a very positive attitude so you know there's stuff that you can control and there's stuff you can't control and the tricky part is trying to to know what's what basically yeah exactly yeah that's exactly it coming back to the the god has a plan thing there is a possibility i believe that this is actually that this was originally meant to be helpful i don't really know but it might have it might have been an attempt to be helpful in the sense that i just mentioned because there's stuff that you can't control and you have if you acknowledge this your life will be happier because if you can't change it and you don't try to change it, you don't get frustrated. Also, if you are confronted with stuff that you can't change and you tell somebody God has a plan, this might give you a positive outlook. As in, there's something who takes care of you. Don't worry, it's going to get better. Yeah. Right? Right. Okay, so this might be the upside. This might be the positive side. This is what I see in movies a lot, You know, people suffering from some very bad occurrence in their life, and somebody else tells them, stick to the cause, God has a plan. You know, it's usually US American movies, by the way, that I see this in. As a theologian, I have like a very huge issue with this because one, it can be misused in order to make people suffer through something that they indeed could change if they wanted. You know, I can tell somebody, you are a peasant. Accept it. You are part of the working class. You don't earn much. You will die poor. Just accept it. You know? Exactly. Yeah. So, this is one issue I have with this. And also, do we believe that God gave us free will or don't we believe that? Because if he did, then this is contradictory, very much. You know, either we can choose stuff in our lives or we can't. If we are indeed completely predetermined, then there's no reason to get up in the morning. And, yeah, I really reject this. and i've i've seen too many examples of this being misused for some other alternative motive, also touching your field of expertise by the way if people say well god has a plan for me there's no need to change you know there's no need to work on myself there's a need to improve my life and there's no need to to do anything about it and and if people suffer because of what i do it's not my fault it's what god's want what god wants me to do. Exactly yeah it's that sort of like not taking responsibility for someone's actions. It's a very good excuse not to take responsibility. Yeah. And even on like you were sort of saying, you know, you're poor, accept it. It's like, actually, there might be something you can do about that to change, whether that's on a personal level or on a societal level. Like if we just accept the structural inequalities, then obviously change will never happen. Whereas if we stand up for it and we say, no, this isn't acceptable to us, then maybe one day there'll be fewer inequalities. You know. A bit like women's rights or lgbtq rights if people didn't fight for those changes we wouldn't live in the world that we do now. Exactly at. Least like in europe and the uk for the time being. Yes and if we go one step further in in this episode we can actually see something that is even more contradictory to the thought of god having a plan um and and i i'm i'm circling back to that like in a minute we have this this wonderful very interesting scene the olympic carrier is heading with its payload of obviously or apparently radioactive bombs maybe i don't know nuclear bombs to the to the human fleet and while it does gaius has another vision and is talking to the woman in red and she tells him that the olympic carrier is going to reach the human fleet and is probably blowing everybody into pieces unless he repents his sins. And then he actually he realizes that that his his death is imminent or something and And he gets, he almost cries, I think, and he gets very scared. And then he says, I repent, I repent, I repent. And then the Olympic carrier gets blown up by Apollo and the crisis is avoided and basically God likes him again. And she tells him that this is like a test of his, she doesn't phrase it that way, but it's basically a test of his faith. Yeah. So, now, not only does God have a plan for us, as she states, but he's also controllable. Yeah. Yeah. You know, like, you can control what God does by doing something or by not doing something. That's a really interesting way of looking at it. Yes, well, this is, I don't want to bore everybody that's listening to us, but there is a very ancient concept in the Old Testament and that I think I mentioned this before. It's called duot des, which is Latin for, well, basically deed and consequence, if you will. So, what you do has a consequence. What you do will be paid equally by God. So, if you do something good, he will reward you. If you do something bad, he'll punish you, okay? So, your life will take turns for the better or the worse, depending on your actions. And there's also some scenes in the Old Testament where God wants to do something, usually something very horrible, like destroying a city. And then somebody that God actually listens to comes along, argues with him, wins the argument and then God decides, okay, I'm not going to level the city. Which is on one hand a good thing because you can actually argue with and reason with God which is something that you couldn't do with like the polytheistic pantheon because Zeus would do whatever he liked to do. But on the other hand, it's like, okay, so. If there would have been like a third person and he would tell God, yeah, level that city, what would God have done then, you know? So, the basic idea behind, again, is reliability. I've mentioned this before. Like the idea of monotheistic one God is that he is an entity that you can rely on. You know what he's going to do. If I do this, then this will be the punishment, you know, or this will be the reward. It's not like I do something and then let's see what happens. And I don't know what the entity will do to me. No, it's like a very, it's like a contract. It's also called a contract in the Old Testament. but the um the issue that i have with with what they are trying to convey in this episode in in 33 is that so one again god is controllable like what would have happened if gaius hadn't repented yeah you know and and the implication is that that then the olympic carrier would have would have blown up and killed everybody, you know, all people that are left of the human race. So, is that true? Is that actually the case? And he didn't test it because he repented, you know? Yeah. And so, this is very, it's a bit simple, if you will, you know? It's a very simplistic way of looking at the relationship between man and God. Yeah, true. I was just sort of thinking, because it's so fear-based, it's like if you... Yes. The lady in red sort of scared Gaius into repenting. Right. Rather than it being, you know, actually let me have a conversation with God. Because when you were talking, I was reminded of in Islam, they, like, you know, in Islam, Muslims pray five times a day, but originally it was loads more times in the day and Muhammad went and had a conversation with God and managed to reduce it to five times a day. Right. And so it's like, instead of like Gaius being able to have a, you know, adult conversation with God, it's like, no, if you, you know, she's sort of threatening him, if you don't repent, then this terrible thing is going to happen to you. So you have to repent. And so it's also, for me, it's like, well, how much do you trust that repentance? Like, is God really so easily, what's the word? Hoodwinked? Is that the word? Persuaded. Yes, yes. Persuaded. like like surely because i was was told you know god sees into your heart so you can't fake it and so it's like if you're and for me it's like if you do something out fear then you're faking it it's not a genuine repentance it's not a and surely also like for repentance to happen it's got to be it must be a more complex process than just because that's is that what you're sort of saying with the simplicity that's how i'm hearing it of the because it's a fear-based repentance, it's a simple i'm scared so i'm going to change this and make it better but i'm not really changing because i'm only doing it whilst i'm scared exactly whereas when i have a bit more courage i'll go back to how it was exactly yeah and. And that is that is like a huge problem or a logic gap, if you will, because if you only turn to God because you fear something, like for example, death, and we've had this before, like in history, like centuries ago. In the Middle Ages, people would convert to Catholicism on their deathbeds. Oh, right. Yeah. Like, you know, you could kill and murder and maim as much as you wanted your whole life. Yeah. And then on the deathbed, you would, you know, you would get baptized and always forgiven. Yeah. It's a bit like Hajj, though, as well. Hajj or Umrah in Islam. Where, yeah, because that's always something that's really, to me, and perhaps it's a misunderstanding on my part, but my understanding was always that you can do whatever the hell you want to, and then you go to Mecca to either perform the main hajj, the pilgrimage, or you can do like the smaller ones, and then you're cleansed of all your sins, and then you can come back, and it's why a lot of people want to die in Mecca, because their sins are all gone, and they'll go straight to heaven. Rather than. The temptations of the world when they get back from Mecca. Right and you know this is actually a very comforting thought isn't it I mean the idea behind forgiveness and repentance is that that you, We are humans and we make mistakes, even if we don't want to. And even if you decide to live as a hermit, you will still do mistakes. You will still do something wrong. And you will still be in need of forgiveness. And the promise of things like the Hajj or the equal concept in Catholicism, repentance in this case, is that God will again... Reliable and reliably, will forgive you. The moment you actually repent, you can be sure that God will forgive you. This is actually what's behind this. And this is not because you can control God, but because he promised to do that. Yeah, this is the reliability you're talking about. Yes, exactly. but and there's a big but that you need to do something for it and this is this is coming back to what you just said is the repentance actually honest is it something that you really regret, and i would and i would question that that this is the case with someone who's being threatened to death you know also i don't know if you've ever come across this but i've i've had people talk to me that some things in your life happen in order to teach you something because god wants to teach you something confronted with something like certain death or with the loss of your house or your job or i don't know something else you know something traumatic in your life, Do you really start learning something or is this just a trauma, you know? And as you just said, is it really a learning experience in this case for Gaius Balter? Do we as humans really learn something in a situation of need or will we get back to what we thought before after the dangerous situation is over? And and yeah that that's that's like a huge question because i would argue that you really only learn something i mean you could use this as a as a tipping off point as a starting point you know remembering the situation and then learning something from it but this is what i'm what i'm trying to say you need the this is like a two-step process you know you don't really repent in this situation you repent afterwards you you get out of the dangerous situation and then you realize what you did wrong or where you don't learn yeah you. Don't learn the lesson in that moment. Yes you. Learn it on reflection afterwards. Exactly that's what i would argue and if i can just digress just a tiny bit if you look like in in the big picture of world politics, for example, like in this very year, 2025, you can see that the question of good or bad, of right or wrong is actually at a lot of points and in a lot of situations subject to debate. I mean, look at situations or problems like world hunger. How do you tackle that? Stuff like unemployment, stuff like the energy crisis. There's like a dozen ways on how to tackle that and you have to decide which one's the correct cause. Or if you look at managers that, I don't know, run a company into the ground and just get off the hook. Because they can always argue, yes, that didn't work, but at the time, I thought I was making really, really good decisions, you know, and they turned out to be wrong. And you go like, yeah, but you should have, like in hindsight, you should have known. And he's like, yeah, in hindsight, I should have known everything, but I didn't. So, are you really going to blame this on me because at the moment, I could only decide on what I knew back then. And I did, and it turned out to be wrong. That's life. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Well, what's the phrase? Hindsight is 20-20. Is it? Yeah. Yeah. Because when you look back, you can see all the things that, you know, you could have done, you should have done, you wish you'd done. And like you say, until, and that's only after the fact, whereas in the moment, especially under duress, like Gaius. Yes. it's like you. Don't even have access to all of your faculties like all of your you know like in this moment for example i feel calm and i feel calm and collected so. I feel. Like i have access to everything at my disposal all of my characteristics that i need to be present here whereas if i was stressed and nervous then you you kind of lose access to things. This this is like the perfect segue to the second thing we have on on our list namely sleep deprivation um yeah and i'm only going going to say this when i don't get my eight hours of sleep i will wake up i will uncontrollably scream at people that i actually like i will be very hungry and i will at the same time have the urge to hug people, so is that normal or you know what does sleep deprivation usually do to people because i fear i may have something i need to talk about with my doctor maybe yeah. Oh my gosh. I mean, especially five days without sleep, that would be something else. Because yeah, definitely. I mean, they say, what is it? It cuts your years of life if you don't get a full eight or nine hours of sleep. They've also discovered recently women need more sleep than men. And so for centuries, women have been getting less sleep than men because they do a lot of the caregiving, that kind of thing. And actually, women need more hours than men. I see some research says it's because we're cleverer than you. And some researchers like it's hormones. Yeah, undoubtedly. Yeah, undoubtedly. But I also find that fascinating. And they say, what is it when women give birth, you know, they have baby brain, which is that sleep deprivation as well, because of what your body is going through and you can't comfortably sleep probably for months. And i mean i haven't given birth so it's not something i can talk about personally, but from what i know of it you know you must not be sleeping properly for ages. And. Then once you have a child both parents are affected by not sleeping and the relationship suffers the marriage suffers and people are cranky and difficult to be with each other so yeah it has a huge, it can destroy so many things i mean i don't want to see you mark when you're when you haven't slept. Yes i feel bad. For your wife now. Yes you don't want to see me when i when i haven't slept enough and i mean it's it's you know every every article you read about this this topic is yeah well people make bad decisions and they are slower and and you know uh they can't concentrate as well and you go like duh yeah i know this i've i've experienced this i i yeah i totally agree, but like in 33 we see people not only trying to to stay awake and fill out some forms but they also control those those combat vipers you know and i yeah i shuddered to to imagine that somebody driving a car while being sleep deprived you know um this this this is really something which is I don't know do you know anything about experiments with sleep deprivation and drugs because this is what they do in the episode. I feel like there's something about done with like in terms of punishment with the military. Right. That's the first thing that's popped into my head. But more as like sleep deprivation as a punishment, but not necessarily sleep deprivation. And then, I mean, I guess, I mean, I mean, this is totally anecdotal, but I use drugs when I was at uni to stay awake. Really? When I was doing my undergrad. Yeah. To like get my dissedation done because I'd just procrastinated on it. Um and it was horrific i got an awful grade um but back in those days yeah i stayed awake for three days yeah for three full days i stayed awake but everyone was on it like it was caffeine tablets back in those days ah okay um right so i don't think it was quite like the sort of stimulants that perhaps people are using now because yeah and then i went out and partied after. Because whenever I didn't have or didn't get enough sleep and then I drink coffee, it doesn't help at all. You know, it just, I'm still feeling very, very, very tired, but now I can't go to sleep. Yeah. You know, this is all it does. It doesn't really get rid of the feeling of being tired. You mean like your body is still sluggish? Yes. But your mind is buzzing. No, my mind isn't buzzing. My mind is sluggish as well and really like cloudy. But it's if if i try to if i try to lay down then i just hear my heart beat very fast and i can't really you know i can't get rest and and this is this is i hate this feeling and i have this like the whole day and then i i'm you know after a good eight hours of sleep then i'll be fine but you know So, this is really... So, when I watched them in 33, I was suffering with them, actually. You know? Yeah. Yeah. And to be fair, I did think... Sorry, go. No, please, please do. No, I was just thinking this was... For me, I thought that they were doing pretty well. I mean, I know they're actors and it's not real life. Yes. But I was quite impressed. Yes. That actually there wasn't that much fighting going on because like you're saying like you scream at people I get so cranky when I'm tired. And. Yeah actually people were seem to be not so bad. To each. Other there were a few moments where it was quite bad I thought but for the most part everyone seemed it was almost like there was something about their training that must have kicked in to keep them as professional as possible that even at five days. You. Know they made one mistake after five days and yeah that was the thing that brought them down but it was still five days. I feel like at some point in this podcast we need to invite somebody who serves in the military um because i i recently watched a documentary about a german submarine and you may know this when when they sleep they sleep in in the same bed as a comrade so they share with two people one bed because you know cramped space and everything and okay they do this with the switch of the watch so you get only six hours and after six hours somebody else gets your bunk bed and you know and so on and so forth and this would be horrific for me like i need eight hours I can't do just six hours and they only get six hours of sleep for months, which would have the same effect as sleep deprivation for me so I don't know how they do it and it seems like they could and at some point in 33 they send back all the Viper pilots to get some wreck time, but only three hours. And I'm like, yeah, but after five days of being awake, you need more than that. You need like eight hours, 10 hours of sleep straight, and then you can get back to your life. Well, that's interesting. I really want to read some research on this now. Right. Because it's something I've started doing just in the last two weeks, because the way that my working day works, because I'm self-employed, I don't really start, the earliest I start is 10 o'clock but most days it's one o'clock in the afternoon and so because of that I was like well because I'm more of a night owl as well so I was like well I may as well stay up later then get up at 8 30 in the morning and I can have my morning routine and then I start seeing clients but what I found was then I was really struggling to go to bed so even if I'd get into bed at 11 o'clock in the evening I was still I'd still be awake until one o'clock and I'd still barely sleep right Whereas the last two weeks, I've shifted my waking up time to an hour earlier, to 7.30 in the morning. And now I'm getting better sleep, even though it's still not as much as I technically should have. But because it's better sleep, I wake up much more rested and less cranky. And I wonder if that's what it is. It's more about the six hours is quality sleep. Yes. Yes, probably. And that's why it's, and same with the three hours, three hours of quality sleep, because I guess they're under so much stress, they're not going to be able to sleep anyway that well. So if it's like a shorter period, maybe that will be better somehow. Well, if it's... I mean, I'm only theorizing. If it's like REM sleep for three hours straight, it's probably enough. But that's the thing. Usually you wake up and you go to sleep like dozens of times during the night. Yeah. And yeah, the research that I know usually points to get in bed before midnight. For some reason um which i find amusing because let's say i i go visit you midnight is one hour early so how does my body know when you know yeah i don't think like apart from my eyes the rest of my body is able to read a clock so yeah i don't know and it's it's usually like the amount of REM sleep that you can get, I think. I'm not an expert, of course. And if there's any doctors out there that have any experience in this field of expertise, then please let us know what the truth is. But there seems to be a lot of research surfacing to the attention of the general public lately, you know, because. So many. People seem to be having a problem with sleep and getting. Enough love it you know yeah it's definitely something i hear a lot of but i think that's also like a, product of the society that we live in yes where it is about it's about being busy it's about doing stuff seeing people and also giving 110 at work it's almost whereas you know sleep doesn't really get prioritized whereas i feel people are talking a bit more about sleep hygiene in recent times and even that phrase sleep hygiene that was never a thing when i was in my 20s, whereas it is much more nowadays well. Yeah i'm sorry to say. Maybe yeah age. Does play a role i'm I'm pretty sure. Yeah. Damn it. Yeah. I mean, the phrase, you are only as old as you feel, feels more and more sarcastic the older you get. Yeah. Hey, what are you saying? I still feel like I'm 20. Yes, yes. I do too. Two hours a day. Mostly after coffee. So, coming from sleep deprivation, how people deal with that, would you like to go to the next point, how to be a good leader? because i found no. Because no i don't want to move on yet because i want you to tell me if there is something some sort of theological meaning on 33. Oh right right before we forget that yeah you mentioned that correct yeah um the short answer is no oh so it's just an. Arbitrary number that. They've picked i i i did ponder this and it's it's also a question like the very first question that they ask us like in the episode there's there's uh somebody of the crew is is musing this like why 33 minutes why not 34 minutes um why is it why isn't it like like every bottom half of the hour or i don't know 60 minutes or something like that And the closest I could get to it is that this isn't actually some sacred number. Yeah. In the Old Testament, like, if we go to Christian mythology, I don't know about Greek mythology, by the way. But in the Christian mythology, you have two sacred numbers, three and four, right? So, there's, like, the Holy Spirit, God, and his son, three. There's, like, four is, like, a very round number. It's dividable by two, stuff like that. One can be also seen as a holy number and also seven which is three plus four so it's three and four and derivatives you know three times four twelve is the number of tribes that exist in israel and you know stuff like that the the number of years the israelites walk through the desert you know um until they reach the the the holy country it should be either dividable by three four or twelve or something like that so this is also like a holy number and 33 like okay okay it is like double three that is true yeah it is also like triple 11 three times 11 and 11 is a wicked number because it doesn't have to do anything with three or four. Right. Which is the reason that Carnival, at least in Germany, is happening and starting at the 11th of November, like the 11th day on the 11th month at 11 o'clock and 11 minutes. That's weird because that's also Remembrance Day. Is it? Yeah. I didn't know that. Yeah, does everyone not celebrate it the same day? Maybe not, really. Okay. Yeah, that also makes me feel really weird about it now. Of like, there's something wicked about why did they put Remembrance Day on this 11th day of the 11th month at 11 o'clock? I wouldn't know, really. Isn't that like a UK thing? Maybe because i can't remember when the war ended and then they decided they would have like a special like ceremony on the 11th day at 11 a.m. Maybe on. The 11th month yeah so odd. Okay well anyway i'm taking us off on the tangent so i don't i don't really know if this is like a thing And maybe I should take a deeper look into this. But religiously, theologically, 33 is really, well, it's double three, so this could be like a holy number, but it doesn't really show up, at least not to my knowledge, in any sort of Old Testament, New Testament thingy. I mean, yeah, mathematically and not historically, but like in the tradition of Christianity, Jesus was like 33 years old, you know, when he was crucified. Yeah. But yeah, I mean, again, these are, they are not really Christians. They are sort of, but you never hear like the word Jesus Christ and they only talk about God. So, this is like, it is monotheism, yes, but it's really hard to grasp. So, what I was initially going with is…, This is something unholy because it's like nothing else, you know? But yeah, maybe I can't really go with this thinking about it. No. Okay. I'm very sorry. I don't think I have anything about this. Well, the thing that came to me while you were speaking was that because we were talking about it, I was like wondering, is this another way to like mess with everyone's heads? Because it is such an arbitrary number and it might this is another way to kind of get people get humans exhausted because they will be sitting there being curious and thinking why 33 what is it about 33 and just making people feel more mad i. Mean it does sound very robotic doesn't it. Yeah like. I mean you know it's not like a round number like people will. Usually. I think people would usually try to have like a whole number, 30, 40, 45, if you will, you know, because it's three quarters of an hour, 60, something like that, you know, that's what we usually choose. And there's this one trick. If you want, like if you are doing some sort of training for a group of people and you want to have a break and you want people to be on time, you know, back from the break and on time. You don't tell them, let's do a five-minute break or a 10-minute break, because people will usually take more than that, more time than that. But tell them, now we do like a seven-minute break. That is so unusual that people will still, you know, will always look at their watches and then be on time because they look at... At what time it is and how many minutes of those seven minutes have passed already so they will always it really doesn't work like that and i mean i've i've seen people try this trick and people still came came back late yeah but yeah this is what they tell you so yes this is like an odd number literally it's not dividable by anything yeah other than 11 but it's it's yeah Yeah, it's maybe that. It feels robotic. It feels maybe a bit random, if you will, and very exact at the same time. So, I would argue that, yes, a Cylon would actually come up with that number. But then again, I would argue that they would also come up with the number 31 or something. And there's really no explanation in the episode of whatsoever. No. Yeah. Okay. Well, let's move on. Okay. So, I always find this fascinating. It's not religious or theological at all. I always find this fascinating when I see role models of leaders in series, especially science fiction series. For example, if you take Jean-Luc Picard from Star Trek, the very first time I ever saw and watched Star Trek in English, in the original, it hit me very hard that Starfleet is actually military. I didn't realize that. Yeah. Because it's rather soft in the German translation. And you don't really, really get the idea that this is like a military ship, which it isn't. They have families and animals on the ship. True. But they also have phasers and photon torpedoes. And he's the captain and they are his crew and they have this chain of command thing. And so they are the military, basically. Add it in with civilian stuff. But basically, this is like a military capable ship. It's run by the military, even in a very civilian manner. And so, to me, the way Jean-Luc Picard leads his crew is usually rather democratic in the end. I mean, of course, he's the last decider and he tells everybody what to do in the end, but he will always listen to his crew and he will always get input from everybody until he makes his decision. And it's like very... You know, he takes into account, like, every aspect that he can get, okay? Yeah. And if you look at the crew of the Battlestar Galactica, it's rather different. At one point, Sol Tai says that an NXO isn't doing his job if the crew doesn't hate him. And this is the way he does it. Like, there's some mistake that happens on the bridge. And then he goes around screaming at everybody, yelling at them. Yes, we're tired. Yes, we're exhausted. And yes, we're still required and asked to do our fucking job. Yeah. Right? Or fracking job, really. They don't use the F word, really. And so, he's like the guy with the whip, okay? So he's pushing everybody forward. And this allows the old man to look very benevolent, you know? Like Saltai screams at everybody and then the old man goes, if we make mistakes, people die. Carry on. Well, thanks for the wisdom, Dad. But, you know, it's like he can appear to be the very benevolent leader who can ponder things, who can think about things, and who can then try to find a decision after the liberation. Whereas Sol Tai is the next in line, and his job is to carry out the orders he's been given and to make everybody listen to what the old man has to say. Yeah although the old man did also make me feel a bit like like when he said that line it was a bit like have you ever had someone say to you i'm disappointed in you i'm not angry i'm disappointed in you that's how i felt was like he's just disappointed in everyone yeah and almost that hurts more than someone screaming at you yes. It's sort of a very it's a it's a very soft power like a very. Yeah it's. It's not it's not screaming it's a very very very whispery sort of power but almost more powerful than than um like if you were screaming at people. Yeah which you can me i've always found it quite yeah i've always just found it quite passive aggressive rather than um yeah rather than you know someone directly saying you've hurt me because you've done xyz or you know this has happened and that's why I'm hurt. But that sort of, I'm disappointed in you makes it feel like it's a, you know, they hate everything about you. Obviously, this could be just a me thing. I'm like, this is just how I deal with things. But it's like a. Go on. I don't think Apollo would disagree with you, his son. Yeah, true, true. Yes, and this is very interesting because he has this almost glacier-like self-confidence. Yeah. Like, yes, he doesn't need to scream, but he, at the same time, has this gravitas about him, you know, which makes you think, yes, what he says is law, okay? Yeah. And there's no two ways about it. And what he does is what he does. And you can try and have a different opinion and you can try and defy him, but it won't work. You really can't do anything against this sort of monolithic, let's go that way sort of attitude. And and you you can actually see it because he usually gets irritated when confronted with the president who constantly and regularly regularly has has a different opinion than him yeah he's not used to that he's used to people following his orders that's what he's used to yeah and what i'm usually pondering at this point is do you need to be this way because this is on one hand And, you know, what you just said, passive-aggressive, daddy-like behavior, but also it inspires confidence, doesn't it? Well, this is a thing, does it? Because for me, if I was part of his crew, but maybe this is also why I wouldn't be part of the military, but I'd just be a bit like, you know, fuck you for making me feel shit. I'm knackered and I'm tired and mistakes do actually happen when you're tired. And why is there no system in place to support us or you know why is there nothing in place like why they're supposed to be in charge why aren't they in charge thinking of a big strategy it's been five days and instead you're making me feel bad because i killed a thousand people i felt so bad for the the the person who was like you know i think that they came back and And even with that, it's like, well, if the two leaders are taking it in turns to have breaks, why isn't there a backup for this person if her job is so important? You know, why isn't she allowed to take a 10-minute nap to be able to keep her sharp with keeping on top of these numbers? I've been a fan of leadership. It's interesting you should say this because I was thinking this is sort of very, very strict and interesting self-leadership, you know? Right, okay. They allow everybody half an hour of sleep, but they themselves only get 10 minutes. Right. Yeah. So, they try to lead by example, which again, I don't know if it's really good because if somebody gets half an hour of sleep, it's still better than 10 minutes. So, the guy who calls the shots is actually the guy who's more sleep-depraved than everybody else in the room. Yeah. So, there is this question of whether or not you have to push yourself more as a leader. And I always think about this when you think about people being sick at work. Yeah. You know, I do lead a small team of five people and I always tell them, if you feel sick, go home, go to the doctor. Let's, you know, let it be checked what you have. And then if you're really sick, don't come back into work. Don't come back to work. Just stay at home, get better and come back because I don't want the rest of my team to get sick as well. Because it's mostly having the flu or something, you know. Usually something that you can actually transmit to other people. So, just please, just stay away. But then I've seen this strange behavior in leadership people that they will, of course, come back to the office while being sick because they think I'm the leader. So, the same standards that I put on my employees don't apply to me. And this is weird I do get the idea I'm not sure that this is actually A good thing because You are setting an example That everybody else is trying to follow Even though you tell them not to. And I've seen this in my line of work quite a lot when leaders of parishes will work like a 60-hour week or something and then tell everybody to watch their overtime and don't work too much overtime while they are watching you working overtime and your ass off. And this is a problem because you seem dishonest, to be honest. Yeah, yeah. You know? Yeah, like hypocritical. Yes. Yes, very much. Very much so. Yeah. I mean, I see it as a sign of insecurity, of a feeling of like, well, if I'm not there, then the whole place is going to fall apart. Whereas everyone beneath me isn't as important as I am. So they should take their time off. Oh, good point. Whereas I had one boss who did do that, like she was very adamant of, you know, when I'm on holiday, I'm on holiday and I was her assistant. And so I was the only person that contacted her. But even then, it was only if shit hit the fan. And it was an absolute emergency. And I thought that was a great way to set an example to the team to actually encourage everyone. Because they were doing really a really high profile job and they needed their rest and to be able to take time away from the job to be with their families be with their friends and even when I was away as well like no one would contact me there was always someone who had your back who would be able to not step in a hundred percent because but again that was I think that was her self-confidence knowing that no one can step into her shoes not an arrogance but a genuine self-confidence no one can step into her shoes but there are things that people can take off her plate while she's on holiday you know whereas I don't think a lot of leaders are that self-confident. But on the other hand, I would argue that it's really not a good idea to believe that you are not replaceable. I mean, what would have happened if your boss back then would have had like a car accident? Well, this is it. So that's the bit that annoys me because it's like, well, if she did end up in an accident, because that was her point as well, was that she is replaceable. So people can take things like, I mean, she's left the company now. So people someone has replaced her and and and is doing her job but in the sense of you know you're not so replaceable that you can't go on holiday and take a couple of weeks off you know no one's going to jump into your job and take that job from you just because you're away for two weeks and that's what I mean about the self-confidence piece I think you need to have some self-confidence to know that you come back and that job will still be yours and the person that was or the people that were looking after that job while you were away yes they did a great job and that is also a good thing and that was the other thing that she was trying to cultivate in the team was that people can take her job because they are just as good as her and I think that is also good leadership to be able to say well you can do what I'm doing I'm not a god and you know you're not some underling you also have the brains and the spirit to do this role does that make sense this. Is actually something i feel that is very very very important the moment you realize that you as a person you are unique and of course nobody can replace you as a human being. Yeah but. There is loads of people that can do your job. Yeah the. Moment you realize that you start trying to, to have the feeling that you need to find ways to make yourself important. Sometimes the role of a leader is to pop up, you know, and to say hello, to ask everybody how they're doing and then leave, you know, just to encourage people and to tell them, yes, I see you. Yes, I see you're doing a good job. You don't need me here because you know your job better than I do. And everything that I would say at this moment would only confuse you. Yeah. So I'm leaving again. I tell you that I value what you do and then I'm back again. I'm out, you know, because you don't need more than this. Well, that's what Captain Apollo said, was you've done this however many times. I don't need to tell you what you're doing. And I really liked that. And I was really surprised that Starbuck pulled him up on it and was like, you're not their friends. Be a captain. I was like, no, I thought he was great. Yeah, but that's, you know, the shadow side, I would say, of what he does, because indeed I would agree with Starbuck that he was indeed trying to be everybody's best friend. He was trying to argue that she should take her pills, you know? Right, rather than just telling her. Yes, because the question is, what role are you in? If I'm your colleague, I'm your colleague. You know, I'm not your best friend, but I'm maybe the next best thing. And sometimes colleagues are closer than family. But when I'm your boss, there's something I usually get criticized for by my wife. And that is that I'm oversharing things with my team. I take them into confidence by telling them stuff that is actually going around in my head. And this has two downsides one they feel important in matters where they actually aren't because i'm just telling them stuff you know and they are that they are usually telling me that i'm right and that what i'm thinking is correct because because of their position they can't really have a different opinion or point of view you know they can't offer a different point because i'm talking about stuff that is outside their jobs you know it has to do with leadership of the of the parish it has to do with people they don't know so they can't really offer a different opinion but they still have they now still have have information they don't need that is not helpful and that is at worst weighing on them you know and is and is making their job more difficult, plus the fact that it took time for me to tell them in which they couldn't do their job because their boss was telling them something. Right? Right. And this is like oversharing. So, as a boss, as a leader, you have to look out for what you say and you have to consider it. And you have to ask yourself, do people really need to know this? I mean, you know, is this having any benefit for them? Yeah. You know yeah and and they are not yeah and. And and one very dangerous thing i think is when you start seeing your team or your company as your family. Yeah because. This is just wrong those are two very separate worlds which should not. Be mixed in my. Opinion because family sort of tells people that that there's a sense of loyalty whereas. In fact let's be honest. The only loyalty that exists is that you do a job for which you get paid this is you know. Yeah and. A company will fire you when it serves the interests of the company and you will hopefully look for another job when it when it serves your interests you know. Yeah yeah that's a lot of stuff i get as well in my work of right people feeling like they have loyalty to a company and when i start challenging it and questioning it they're very confused by it almost like there is some somewhere in our culture you get told that you should be loyal to a company but i think that's a very like old-fashioned way of looking at things like i think back in the day people did stay in their jobs for like 25 years you know 50 years whereas i think people change a lot more now or at least in recent times because Because, well, why shouldn't you? Because new jobs give you new experiences. It's not about staying in a job just to pay your rent or your mortgage. I think jobs are more nowadays, they're more about fulfillment and fulfilling you as a person, rather than it being just about money. And it's very important to get that straight, really, because it serves to develop a very healthy relationship to your colleagues, your boss, your company. Because, and I'm sure you would agree on this, being in the wrong job is one major source of frustration. And it can be very, very slow, you know, like little things that get worse and worse over time and you don't really notice it. Until one day you wake up and realize that you really should have quit your job like three years ago. And maybe then you can't because of some sort of situation. And you realize, okay, so I should have started some additional training in my free time three years ago, which would have enabled me to quit my job two years ago. And now I would be happier or, you know, at least not as depressed as I am right now. And and this is you have to look out for this and especially especially in my line of work especially in my line of work this is really i've i've met so many pastoral workers that are 50 plus years old yeah and the only word that i can find for them is they are hurt this this is this is the state of mind i'm at some meetings i'm surrounded by 10 people who are basically hurt because for the past 30 years they've been told you are not as valuable as a priest because they are lay people um you are only a replacement if we had enough priests then your job would be obsolete and at the same time because if you're training and this this goes for a lot of people in my line of work because of their training the only realistic employee, only heuristic employer is the church. So, you can't really go to another company and look for another job unless you get additional training. And it's so really, really, really depressing. And they will play psychological tricks on you. They will make you feel self-conscious. They will try to make you have a bad conscience, you know, because you said something or you wanted something or you asked for something or you demanded something and they will always try and play with guilt. It is improving. It definitely is. But this is how working for the church could be at times. And I've seen a lot of people that feel hurt, especially women. Because they, you know, for me, for example, I'm often mistaken for a priest because I'm a man and I work for the Catholic Church. This can't happen to a woman because people do realize that women can't be priests. Right. Yeah. And there are still people that don't want their aunt to be buried by a woman because it's not a priest and then it's not holy and then their soul will not get to God, which is, of course, completely false. But this is something that still happens occasionally. I will grant you that. But, you know, it's still, it's been tough for the past 20, 30 years. It's getting better now. But still, you are surrounded by people that basically think they should have quit their job 20 years ago. They couldn't because they didn't really have an opportunity. And one last thing to that, I think this is a problem that you have in all social, well, if I call them social jobs, you know, social worker, but also teachers. Pastoral workers, every job that has to do with other people. Because people that work those jobs do that for the money, but equally they do it because they want to do it and they feel like a moral obligation to do that. Like a calling. Yeah, a moral calling. They're really in that job with their hearts, which is a good thing, but you can exploit that quite easily. Yeah. Yeah, I think so. All right, Nalima, what's your conclusion? What is my conclusion? I think I'm sort of left with this feeling of like, I don't know, I guess maybe this might sound a bit dramatic, but something along the lines of despair, of like what sort of leadership do we have at the moment? Because almost I feel a bit like at least for me I feel like I've put on leaders this thing of like God doesn't have a plan but leaders have a plan they should know what they're doing, and yet it feels like no one knows what they're doing and the leaders are who are apparently leading us it doesn't feel like leadership to me the way that I would want it to be. Um i find i find leadership in other places but more on like a smaller level but i'm talking about like on the global level the international level it doesn't feel like there is leadership to kind of get us through for me the big crises that are happening of like you know global poverty global inequality climate change warfare all of that stuff and so that's why i'm sort of in this place of and watching this episode as well of like actually if we did end up in a in a situation where actually the whole world would have to unite who who would lead us who would get us there, because right now I imagine it would be quite sort of like lots of little factions of people um, Yeah, so that's where I'm at, in a really cheery place of despair. Mentioning that, I was thinking that if it's true that, again, thinking about God having a plan or God not having a plan, if it's true that you need to try and find out what things in your life you can change and which things you can't change, maybe the things you can't change will get more and more. Like looking at climate crisis you can't really change that as a single person you need countries for that not even just one country you need a lot of countries in order to battle that challenge you know and you need to you need to unite for example europe needs to unite in order to keep people like putin at bay yeah so it feels like that the fields in which we could actually affect our own lives those fields are getting smaller and smaller and fewer and fewer which is a challenge for mental health and curiously enough leads to something that I've frowned upon like 20 minutes ago. There is this praying practice which is a bit like, meditation in which you just try to deal with the fact that something that really frustrates you is something that you can't change and you try to train yourself to endure that that that's that problem that challenge in your life okay so maybe this is something that we as a society and probably a lot of people should pay more attention to and should try to deal with because... Yes, you can only ever change the things that are very close to you, like your social neighborhood, if you will. You know, very small social circle that you are able to influence. But the feeling that there's stuff out there that is happening without me having any chance to influence. This feeling has increased over the past years and it will increase in the future. And so this is something that that we should probably learn to deal with because if we don't then stuff will happen like i don't know conspiracy theories or trump for that matter yeah i think there is a connection so this is this is i believe something that that i'm taking away from this this episode okay in our conversation and on this note we would like to end. I hope you've enjoyed listening to us and this very first episode of the first season, 33. Take care of yourselves and each other and always remember the Cylons look like us now. Until next time on Sci-Fi Therapy, so say we all. So say we all.