Hello and welcome to Sci-Fi Therapy, the podcast where we put our favorite sci-fi shows on the couch. In this first season, we're going to take a deep dive into Battlestar Galactica, the version from 2006. And in today's installment, we'll be taking a bit of a different angle as we will put different characters on the couch. So today, we're trying to take a deep dive into the psyche of some of the characters that we've met so far. I am Mark, a theologian from Germany. And I'm Nalima, a psychotherapist based in London. Before we dive in, make sure you hit that subscribe button so you can follow us on this journey. And if you like what you hear, leave us a review to let us know what you think. Yes, please do. And Nalima, what do you say we dive in and what we thought, would be a good start for today's episode would be to look at Kara Starbuck-Threis, Lee Apollo-Adama and his father, Commander-Adama. What do you say? Want to put them on the couch? Absolutely. Whom do you want to start with, Nalima? Kara, Lee or Commander-Adama? Shall we do ladies first? Ladies first. Okay, right. So, Cara Threis, what would you say is the most striking character trait that we've seen so far? Good question. I think for me, probably the main thing that I've noticed about her is this problem with authority, like needing to do what she thinks is right, which I find weird as hell because why would you join the military if you have an issue with authority? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's like very obvious, isn't it? What would your guess be? Why would a person having a problem with authority, join a strict organization as the military? I guess off the top of my head, it'd be sort of, I'm thinking daddy issues. The colloquial daddy issues. I guess we have to explain that term, don't we? Sure, yeah. We'll get into it. We'll get into it. I guess that sort of idea of, it's totally thinking off the top of my head now, of like someone who has come from a really chaotic environment and has probably always had to make the decisions themselves, haven't really had any caregiver support. Um and it's like actually you know what i'm done being responsible for myself so i'm going to be, looked after and cared for by somebody else and i think organizations are strict like the military or i'm also thinking religious institutions like if you, go off to be a monk or something maybe even in your institution although it doesn't seem so sort of dogmatic, um Depends but yes generally. But I think that's, Like if I'm being totally empathetic with her and trying to understand her and thinking of people I've worked with who she might remind me of, it makes sense that you'd go towards something that is quite dogmatic to kind of, I guess, control yourself rather than kind of really dealing with the rage that she's sitting with and processing that and understanding it. Instead, it's like, let me get something that's going to help me to shut this down. What do you think? Do you know, as you mentioned it, you know, that she reminds you of people that you know and have worked with, she's a bit like 60% of my colleagues. Oh, wow. Okay. If I'm being honest, not as, you know, she's a bit brutal, like she's a very strong character on one hand, although this might be like a cover, but, you know, only the outside and the inside is very different from what you can see. But um the the general behavior is is much more like a lot of my colleagues um, and this might be a german phenomenon uh i don't really know um but to to describe it like very roughly um, A lot of my colleagues are, for one, hurt because of what happened in the past, especially older colleagues, like in their 50s and 60s. They have had the experience that they wanted to do stuff, and they were always forbidden to do what they wanted to do. And they couldn't assume the roles that they wanted to have and fulfill because of restrictions in the year, especially the Catholic Church. You know, you can't become a priest if you're a woman. You can't do certain stuff when you're not a priest, even as a man, stuff like that. Okay? So, this is one deep frustration that they all have and share. And especially when you look at lead roles, like when you wanted to lead a parish, you couldn't do that. And they had to fight for it like over decades until now. Yeah, and even when they were allowed to actually organize and lead a parish, they were not allowed to call themselves leaders, but pastoral workers with coordinating abilities. Oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah, so that's like the official title that they had, you know, coordinators, not leaders. Right? Right? So, and this is like one thing. And the other thing is that a lot of them, for some reason, I can't really point my finger on it why, but a lot of them have this... This underlying, I'm opposing every sort of authority, like talk to them in private and they will absolutely trash talk any authority they have from, the priests in their parish to the bishop and every person working in between, like every management position. And they will do that because everything's shit and, you know, only the thing you do yourself is actually good and everybody else has really no idea what they're doing. Right. And on the other hand, they are sort of thirsting for leadership. Right. This this it's it's a very very interesting uh contradiction that on the one hand they want somebody who tells them what to do and on the other hand they want something to to really blame for everything and and and um, and really uh really be mad about yeah right yeah does that make sense or yeah. No you've named something so significant i'm just sort of like sat in amazement, just like i've never heard it said so clearly to me before like that contradiction of yeah wanting someone to take control and have authority. And. At the same time having wanting someone to blame for all the shit that has happened. I don't know if it's only that okay but it's it's certainly a part of it and, um this all maybe boiled down i don't know if it really is that. But, one reason for all of this, for this contradiction might be that, they don't really want to take responsibility. Because if you deny all the authority that somebody else has over you and you go like, okay, so nobody can tell me, what I'm supposed to be doing, this as a consequence means that you yourself are responsible for your own actions, right? So what you do in your job and what you do with all the people, we have like a people-centered work environment, okay? So, we can't blame anybody else but us if we deny that authority is actually a thing. And maybe people don't want that. Maybe they don't want to be responsible. Yeah. Because all the failures, you know, sort of fall back to you. Or on you, rather. So, you know. It was kind of how I feel a bit about things like CBT and our approach to therapy. Of like the people that come to me tend to be people who generally want to take responsibility. Sometimes they take too much responsibility, but that's a whole other story. But it's about, for me, the process of therapy with me is about learning what is like that. The quote that we've said quite a few times now of, you know, what is it I can be responsible for? What is it I have no control over? That kind of thing. And for me, people that go to something like CBT will be people who aren't ready to take responsibility. And want somebody else to sort of tell them how to fix this, how to make things better. And I feel like with Starbuck, so she has Saltai, who is, you know, her punching bag, the person who is to blame for everything. Right. And then General Adama, who is, you know, the kind authority that knows everything and knows how to look after her and protects her. And we've seen that. We've seen that even when Saltai tried to apologize to her, she wouldn't take it. Because I think they are at a point where he can do anything and he can't do anything right. You know, anymore. It's no matter what he does, she's convinced he's incapable of doing his job. And I guess the only thing that he could do that she would at least recognize, not respect, but recognize is give up his command. And, you know, vanish into oblivion. That's what he could do. But that's all. Yeah. So, he can't actually do anything to rectify the situation? No. Right? But I guess it's that, is it that, like, because she has this belief that she knows what is right... Like a sort of, is it stubbornness? It's not a self-awareness, is it? No, no. No, she's, I would really doubt that she's self-aware. Like in a sense that she knows what she needs. She has sort of, she does have convictions. Like she does have a basic sense of right and wrong. Right? So, she does know that certain things are not okay and that other things are okay. But I can't at this point, I couldn't tell you what the guideline is here. Right? So, I wouldn't know what the compass is on this. Like, how does she determine if something's right or wrong? I couldn't tell this. Absolutely, yeah. Like, she sort of keeps you on your toes because you don't know. Like say if i was salt i wouldn't know what do i need to do to get her to be okay with me it's almost like she has made like i'd love to know what the backstory is and to understand what it is that he's done to get into her bad books, and if like you say is there like how do you like what's the compass there do you what are the guidelines how do you know what it is that she that makes someone fall into her bad books or does she just instinctively make a decision, because i'm also thinking about that bit where, you know, she has the pilots and she's training the new bunch of pilots. And then because of her guilt with her fiance, she treats them like shit. And then I think it's General Adama that says to her, go back and sort this out. And that's why she listens to him. Whereas I wonder what it would have been like if Saltai had been like, what the fuck are you doing? Yeah, she would never have listened to him. And that's it. Maybe personal connection is one thing. Like, if she respects you because she likes you, it feels a bit like if you've made it in to take your verbal image, if you've managed to get in her good book, then you're in the good book. And it feels like, I don't know if this is true But it feels like you will be having a hard time to get out of that book Right? On the other hand, if you are in the bad book Then you are in the bad book And you have a hard time getting out of that as well So, and this seems to be connected to how she, How her relationship is with somebody like i mean obviously commander adama is sort of a father figure for her i would i would argue and so she's she's uh respecting him because he has that role, and i don't i wouldn't even i would be very interested and and very curious about how he managed to become like a father to her like what did he do right yeah. Yeah because surely it can't be just because she was getting married to his son. No, no, no. Because it seemed like they had the relationship before that because he approached her. Yes. And like the way he held a hand as well at the funeral, it felt really like they already had a bond. Would you argue that she has a problem controlling her impulses? Yeah, because it's almost like she reacts from a place of instinct. So this is what we were thinking of, like, she's not, she's not reflective. So she's not able to sort of reflect in the moment of, I'm feeling this emotion. What does this mean? How shall I react to it? It's almost like the emotion happens and she reacts immediately. Right. Um which in certain situations like you know the way she escaped off that planet like absolutely brilliant you know i probably would have been stuck there because i'd be too busy reflecting um, and being like is this the right path am i sure i'm doing the right thing um so sometimes those instincts are amazing when they kick in but i guess the thing with, being able to be a reflexive person is that you would know when to rely on those instincts and when actually you shouldn't necessarily give into those instincts immediately, like maybe her instinct about saltite is completely right but i'm not sure if punching an officer is the way to get like to get through to him um, you know if she's like disgusted by his behavior you know with his alcoholism and things like fair enough um, you don't want a senior officer to be in that state but i'm not sure if berating him the way that she does is the way to go about it and that for me is like her following her instincts and not and being so impulsive. In a way, she is not an adult. Yeah. She's very childlike. She's crashed and absolutely shattered when she gets a talk down from Commander Adama. Oh, gosh, yeah. I can't remember. Did he put her in detention? Like in a cell? Oh, I can't remember. No, but he was disappointed in her. Yeah. He was disappointed. Yeah. Yeah. She told him about the death of his son. Right, right, exactly. So, he was angry. And this is actually, a good point, I think. When she was in prison, that didn't really affect her. Because it was like the organization, it was Saul Thai who did this. And, you know, she doesn't care what they think. But when Commander Adama if you will replacement father when he gets disappointed when he gets angry at her, that gets to her that gets under her skin and so she's like a daughter a child if you will and she acts only in reaction to, the emotions of people that she cares about, which is maybe the reason why there aren't many people that she cares about you know if this is a good point if if this is something that you need to look out for, like when people get to you when you connect to them they have control over you because you know the moment you connect emotionally to them their emotions can can sort of uh steer you can control you so in order, to limit that control of other people over you you have to limit the emotional connection to other people. That's really interesting. I hadn't seen it that way. Yeah, I saw it more as like a, it takes courage to be in relationship with many people. Not that it lacks courage necessarily if you're not in relation with other people, but there's something going on. And I know with some people, they have a preference for not being in relation with other people. But you're right, like the amount of times I've thought, like, I wish it was just me in the world, because then I'd only have to deal with my own shit. You know, I wouldn't have to deal with, not deal, I mean, it's not the right phrase of, you know, but I wouldn't be affected by other people's emotions or, you know, if someone told me something sad or something happy, it wouldn't affect me because I wouldn't know. Right. Oh, it's interesting, Mark. Very interesting. So, one last thing that I would connect to this is that she might not be as strong as she seems to be. Oh, yeah. Because on the one hand, you know, let's try and view the world from Kara Thraser's eyes. So, there are a few people you feel safe with, like Lee Adama and Commander Adama, his father. And that's basically it i think well zach of course you know the dead fiance but you know that's that's it so, she seems to have learned that uh having connections to people can one influence you and control you and be be very hurtful right yeah so so they they ache um, that's what human connections do because if you love somebody and he dies then of course you mourn and you're traumatized and stuff like that. So this is why she limits exposure to human connections. And this is why she feels so hard and rigid, right? So maybe this is all a facade. This is what she learned. And the interesting question would be, how and why did she learn this? Because her inner commandment or her inner rule of thumb seems to be the world is a place where you get slaughtered if you're not strong. Yeah. Everybody is your enemy until they become your friends. So... Um this this is maybe a um a reaction to um, yeah to that conviction. You know yeah because. In her inner core she's actually afraid of everything. I just had a random fantasy pop into my head of, um i wonder well i wonder whether like kara you know as a child like her family's really like chaotic and then maybe general adama lived next door with his sons, and she would go over and play with them and their house would be more calm, yeah and so that's why they have that strong bond because maybe she's known him since she was young and he's always been a calming presence and his sons i mean like you know leo dama seems like a nice guy so i can only imagine that the other brother probably also was a nice guy, and especially as a woman to meet nice guys is not the most common thing sadly um, so she's then you know met this family who are a bunch of nice people who have calm and so why wouldn't she then join the military to be with them to continue that level of calm that she's not finding in her home this is lovely this is great no no. No she did not join the military because she wanted to join the military she joined them because of lee and his father oh nice. I wonder i want a prequel episode. Well, what I can promise you is that at some point in the series, we will encounter her mother. Ooh. Okay. So, then I'll find out. A bit. Okay. It's only like, is it called a limelight? Like, you know, a short burst of light on some very limited… Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So, we'll just have like a glimpse into that private background story. But still, your idea is very, very lovely. So, what Commander Adama gives her is what she lacked in her own family. Lovely. Yeah. Right. Usually the thing you see with um i see this with a lot of like relation relationship therapists on social media of um, at least this is what's in my feet of like you shouldn't when you meet someone new you shouldn't be looking for chemistry because chemistry is a thing that connects you to what you've always been used to which is the chaos in our childhood, if you grew up in a chaotic environment of course, um and what you should instead be looking for is almost like boredom when you meet someone someone that doesn't trigger you doesn't affect you in a chaotic way which is what i feel like she's been able to do is go against her conditioning perhaps to some extent, and actually be around people who are good for her. Would you say that she's fighting to improve on her relationships? Because the task that she seems to have in her life is to grow up as a person, to take responsibility of her feelings and emotions, and to learn how to deal with them. She's now in a very, very thick shell. You know and. If she wants to grow as a person she needs to tear down those those shell. Walls yeah. And allow herself to have like really high quality relationships. Which is. Which means exposing herself and her inner feelings to other people. Yeah yeah but i'm not sure how much she does that oh i'm not sure how much they do that as well like the the adamas because even you know when she got stuck on that planet and finally came back, no one actually sort of said, you know, General Adama didn't say, oh, I'm so sorry that, you know, I was upset with you. He kissed her, which meant that. And we can all like, you know, assume that this is the meaning. But I think there's a big difference between, you know, us assigning meaning to an action and actually someone saying, I'm sorry, I love you. You know? Yeah. But do you think that would be something that she would try and achieve if she ever decided? I mean, let's be honest, she would never visit your practice. No. Never. Not to say meet her. But let's assume that she actually arrived at a point where she wanted to start self-reflecting on herself. Um Like would that be the thing that that would be the aim of of uh therapy sessions. Make her absolutely deal with her. Own feelings right yeah. Yeah because the only way to kind of like for us to deal with our own feelings is to learn how to communicate them but it's not just to learn how to communicate them it's also to find the people who can receive our feelings right, And that's why I sort of say, like, with the relationship she's in at the moment, like, sure, General Adama can receive her feeling of guilt and understand that, you know, she feels bad for lying about his son. But at the same time, he didn't, again, like, in the moment, he wasn't able to receive that. In the moment, he also lashed out at her. Right. Whereas I think a healthy dynamic would be, maybe he might lash out a tiny bit, but a really healthy, super healthy relationship would be him being like, man, that's shit. I can't believe that happened. And also, I completely understand or I understand why you did what you did. And it sucks for both of us that we're both feeling the sadness and this loss and we really miss this person so much. You know like that i feel would be a more healthy sentiment rather than him being like get out of my sight, you know and then kissing her at the end when she comes back safe like he, it's like if she hadn't almost died would he have reacted that way or would he have been would he have held that against her you know and that's why it sort of feels a bit i don't think they know how to, communicate feelings so how is she going to learn it. I just realized this this relationship could actually be toxic yeah i mean i mean now that you've sort of funneled uh both of us into this let's let's maybe jump to commander adama straight. Away yeah sure. Um so commander adama if we look at what you just described um, it speaks volumes about his his sort of um his values and his moral compass. Yeah. You know? So, if we look at him, he's a very experienced man, He's been in command for ages and he's very much used to people obeying his commands. Like that's what he does. And I would even argue that he's a very good commander because he trusts his crew and his people, you know. Like he's not micromanaging anything. He is a commander. So he trusts that when he gives an order, everybody knows what they're doing. And he doesn't really control how they do it as long as they get it done. Right yeah i mean in the military i i would i would assume that uh, uh like every everything that you do like every movement that you make every decision that you take has actually been pre-decided for you like you have to operate this console this and this and this way yeah and you don't do it in any other way right, i mean if you want to change something you have to go to your superiors and get a sign off and something like that so, but still he trusts his people. Right so um he's he's a good commander um he even feels like a commander you can go to when you have a problem even if it's a, rather personal problem or a bit of a personal problem uh he will listen to you he will maybe not give you advice but he will listen and he will maybe share his inside if necessary, you know but but as you just said if you disappoint him that seems to be a cardinal sin for him. Yeah right yeah. So if this this trust in you like one of his coordinates um, when you're one of them uh you you have to earn his trust i would argue yeah, like he constantly uh evaluates you right, he looks he looks at at your performance records he looks at how you do your your work and if that's all right and if you've earned his trust which probably takes, uh years i would argue and i would guess uh then you've earned it it's fine but you have to earn it, and if you disappoint him then then that's really really like a big fall for you like you really hit the bottom, and you can't a bit like kara you know when you in him when you're in his bad book yeah then you're in his bad book and and you, have a chance to get out of this but only if your life is threatened and he really he really realizes that he would miss you if he lost you. Yeah but even then didn't he say something like it would only be for Kara and his son that he would do that yeah so he wouldn't even have gone back for anybody else. No no definitely not definitely not so they are very much alike in this regard. Yeah I hadn't seen that yeah. I mean you know While she, while Starbuck is trying to fend off every sort of deep relationship because it's scaring her, he might do the same thing, but only because he maybe has made the experience that this is actually bad for his command, for his role, you know? You can't have too many attachments because you may be forced to send them into their deaths at some point, which they had to, if you remember. Yeah Right when the fire broke out Yeah And they had to send like 10 people in there And only 8 made it back or something Yeah. Yeah. I'm also thinking about the president and his relationship with the president. Right. And like at some points, they seem like they get on. At the beginning, they hate each other, then they look like they got on. And then I just started watching the episode where Gaius has made the Cylon detector, and they're both sort of thinking that the other is a Cylon. And so almost that sort of distrust is back again, but he's never fully trusted her anyway. If you were part of a screw, what do you think you'd have to do to earn his trust? Well, there's the problem. It feels a bit like, because you know, there was the girl who, I can't remember her name, so you can tell me what her name is, who she missed something or, she missed counting that ship that then got stuck and then they had to blow it up in the end. Yeah, yeah. No, I don't remember her name, but I have a face like in my mind. Yeah, I know what she looks like. He was so disappointed and i feel like i would be that character like she sums me up to maturity you know hard working does her best um, and then makes one mess up and he's just like he does that face where it's like i am so disappointed in you, and i could feel like her soul just crushing when i was watching that and i was like that's that's me that's me in my life, um whereas like if someone says you know they're disappointed in me it just destroys me um, but that's how i feel like he'd be to be around it's like you'd you'd get all the brownie points almost like you'd kiss ass in a way of because he'd be so grateful because he does seem to like really appreciate it when you do a good job so then you'd kind of build up all that kudos and you'd be like oh yeah he loves me i'm amazing and then you fuck up one time and he's like i'm disappointed in you and you're back to square one again. Dee Dwala, by the way, is her character's name. Yes, yes. So, there's a lot of on and off, isn't there? Yeah. What do you think it'd be like to work for him? Stressful? Yeah. Exhausting? Because, again, is there a clear compass? He seems to, as you just said, he seems to value good work. Okay? And he seems to expect certain performance levels. So, this is transparent, okay? So, you can know what you have to do in order to please him. But that's exactly it. You need to please him. I want to believe that there's a certain form of trust that he has naturally. Right because you couldn't even start to work for him if he hadn't yeah but, oh my god and and you know exactly what you just said if you do something wrong, he doesn't punish you professionally he punishes you by by um, taking back his love right so it almost feels like i mean we may be or i may be um over analyzing this a bit but to me it feels like that everybody is kind of looking for him, for daddy to love them, okay? Yeah. And so, if you do something that he dislikes, then this means that you lose his affection and his love. Mm-hmm. Yeah, exactly. Oh my God. Yeah. I'd be interested to know, if his character has created that dynamic where everyone looks up to him. I don't know how you'd create that dynamic because that wouldn't be a dynamic I would want to create. But I do have relationships and friendships that are like this where it doesn't feel entirely secure. It doesn't feel entirely safe unless i please that person continuously all the time which obviously we can't do as humans because you will fuck up at some point that's just how it is. I i really i really hate this conclusion i hate this because um i always felt like he's a very good role model for being a good leader yeah right. Yeah because that's how you started the. Section yeah he's he's like he's like um a caring commander, um who actually forgives you when you make mistakes but now that that we think about it this is also a means to control people, because because if you let's say you you did something like d okay so you have his trust and you have the love of daddy and then you do something bad and daddy is is is mad about you right and he's disappointed in you, and so because you just lost his his affection and his love you do everything to get it back okay so you double your efforts and you try to redeem yourself and this is exactly the point redemption and, feeling guilt and trying to get redemption is one huge and large means of control. Yeah. Yeah. Gosh, Mark, you're blowing my mind today. I'm not happy about it. Really, I'm not. Because he has, I would still try and fight for, or try, to argue that he actually has a very good way of dealing with the mistakes of others. But he may not be as forgiving as I always thought he was. Oh, this is getting dark. I hate this. Well, you're now making me wonder, like, do we know why Leo Dahmer stopped talking to his dad? Oh. Oh. Or do we find that out later on? Oh, damn. No, because this makes perfect sense, doesn't it? Like, he... If Leo Dahmer... I mean, the thing that you can see from the outside is he's mad about his father because he blames his father for the death of his brother okay fine right right but what if there's an underlying reason, and and he's trying to rebel against this this father and his means of controlling everybody and i think i think we've heard him say this. Yes yeah about the redemption about um. About control Yeah. About control, about the brother only doing the flight course because he knew daddy wanted him to do it. Oh, shit. I mean, we're talking about a sci-fi show here, okay? This is not like world politics or something really important. Well, it sounds like General Adama meant a lot to you. Yes, he did. I love the scene. So, quick insight into my psyche, okay? So, when I first watched this show, back in 2006, it blew my mind with every episode because uh the the, makers were not afraid to kill off characters that you really held deeply in your heart so they they would build a character for four or five episodes and then it gets shot. And you go like no no main characters never die haven't they watched star wars, right and and they're really dead like they don't come back and haha this was all a joke no the dead okay so and and and this was this was one thing and i felt it was really a really good insight into uh, into the human psyche because the show is basically well it is about the question of how humanity would deal with uh artificial intelligence yes yes okay, but it's also about how the characters, interact with each other, And this is about relationships. This is about people. And what I loved about the show is that, the portrait of those relationships is really, really realistic. This is what I criticize, with Star Trek a lot. You have a Star Trek criticism? Yes, yes, I know. I'm deeply sorry. I'm disappointed in you. Mark. Oddly enough, I think I can deal with it. If you look at a character like Deanna Troi, I feel like they've neglected her a lot. Like they could have they could have done so much with her and in the first i think three seasons or so she's she's limited to falling um, falling unconscious every time there's a strong emotion in the room right she always goes like oh, and then she even lifts her hand to her forehead yeah you know like like those movies from the 50s and it's it's really oh it's awful and and, And they take a lot of time to develop all the characters. Worf needs ages in order to become like a grown-up character with more than just one facet, you know? Yeah. So... And Battlestar Galactica always had this, like, from the start. You have believable, realistic characters. And for me especially, I have this, like, you know, we're all damaged. Yeah. And I'm damaged in, or at least, yeah, I have this trait in this one way where I respect leading leadership people, leadership personalities, right? And what I used to do And hopefully I don't do that anymore But I used to do this even with my bosses I would put them on a pedestal And then be disappointed When they didn't live up to my expectations And then be angry at them Yeah, Right? Yeah I would always be shocked When I found out that those people Were actually people, With You know histories and flaws yeah that would always shock me and, I've come to realize that and I try to not do that anymore because it's not really helpful but yeah, So, this is probably what I felt towards Commander Adama, which oddly enough means that a fictional character who is controlling people by giving them love or not giving them love has actually managed to control me, the viewer. Yeah. Yeah. I love it when a show does that, though. True. Yeah. Yeah. Just a quick side note. I don't know if you or any of our listeners have watched The Bear recently. No. Have you seen it? Okay. It's a show on Disney Plus. And it's about people that want to do and create and build a restaurant, I think, in the Bronx. I'm not really sure. And uh it's it's you know it's a show about a restaurant but it's also again a show about you know personal relationships and um they have this this, the the the main character the chef has a mother um, and she is uh sick okay okay she she's really mental like literally she has, a lot of psychological problems. And she's being portrayed by Jamie Lee Curtis. Okay. And she does this so wonderfully. She's so annoying that my wife and I have stopped watching episodes because of her. Oh gosh. Because she's so realistically abusive, emotionally abusive to everybody that it started hurting us as the viewers. Right? We couldn't bear it. She's so good, I hope she's a lovely person and just, you know, she just didn't portray that role as she is in real life. I have no idea how Jamie Lee Curtis is in private. But she manages to play this completely toxic character so greatly, so masterfully, that she made us switch off the television. Wow Yeah So I guess I guess there are Really really good actors And, Commander Adama Managed to do this With me at least So I'm At this moment Not willing to Actually Acknowledge the fact That he's maybe Abusive To the people Who write him Yeah Yeah. But I guess this is where like reflexivity comes in, which we talk about a lot in therapy of like when you like, I guess the safest relationship to try this out with is characters to sort of notice how you feel, when you're with a character. So, like, noticing exactly what you've noticed with General Adama, with Commander Adama, how you felt at the beginning, how you're feeling now about him, and to sort of notice, oh, okay, this is how you are in relationship with these types of people. It's a great bit of self-awareness and self-learning. And again, if he went to your couch, which admittedly he wouldn't do either. Damn it, these people! Um and uh i mean we we can be fairly certain that he would never try to do that yeah because he's so self-confident you know he's he's uh made a lot of decisions at one point, um either that's already passed or will be uh, in future episodes um he's being made aware of of you know somebody tells him that that they made a mistake and he went like yeah i've done those, and and he's learned that he will survive anything any false decision any wrong, um decision any wrong path that he took so um he's very self-confident because of experience, so what would he have to learn what would he have to work with or work at when he went if if he would actually enter your practice for example and and work with you. Um, I guess what I'd hope he'd come away with is to, like, not feel like he has to control people in that way. Like, to really be able to trust that this person is going to get the job done because they want to get the job done, rather than feeling like he has to control people and use this sort of emotional manipulation to get things done. Why would you What would you, Guess Why he has the need to do that. Hmm, that's a good question. I guess it's like if you grow up in a state of like where you can't control people, and perhaps the only way you know of to control people is in this way. So you have people that will control others through violence, for example. Or um like with soltar for example he says at some point you know it's okay for everyone to hate me that's what i'm here for right and so almost that's his way of controlling people which doesn't feel as bad because it's obvious, um whereas with commander adama it feels a bit more um, duplicitous is that the word um like underhanded where and i guess it's like you know yeah if you grow up in a in an environment where you don't know, whether someone's going to come or go and the only way to get someone to stay is by showing them love and, and then also to get them to come back and to stay connected to you is to show them disappointment, i don't know i'm thinking i know a few people like this and i'm trying to sort of imagine their environments, of like yeah never having sort of received consistent love and so almost like when it does come it's like almost like i've got to hold on to it by any means necessary. And maybe and with commander adama the love is sort of in the shape of his subordinates, obeying him obeying his commands but then that just because you obey a command it doesn't guarantee you're going to do a great job. I was thinking that maybe this is a family issue after all. Like, when he seems to be living for the military. I mean, let's be honest. I don't know about his sons, and we obviously don't know about Kara Thrace. But he's a military guy. Like, he's been... His whole life is the military. So... In a way, the military is all he has, and it's his family. Yeah. So, it's only natural that he would act like their father. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. So, it's a substitution, right? Yeah. Especially after his falling out with one of his sons, and his other son is dead. And um i guess it would have been uh, a positive influence if if either of them had not pursued a career in in the military right like if his son uh had become an artist, or a programmer or something then then he would have had to to um, acknowledge the fact that there's more than the military and and he would have had also some sort of of uh safe space like where he can be a father, yeah and then he can be a professional leader in his job but if both things like mix together then then it's really hard to to untangle them right. Yeah i think so yeah because also like i sort of feel like growing up with a dad like that you'd have to have such an incredible level of self-awareness. And incredible. Courage to be like dad i'm going to go and do this other thing and to really like step out of that environment. I guess um you'd have to you'd have to say that on the other hand a relationship like this to your superior um, results in people doing doing extraordinary things for him go to extraordinary lengths to to fulfill their job and and the expectations in him right i mean that's the reason why he's called the old man, like in yeah my father the old man right. Yeah yeah yeah i hadn't made that connection. So um this is this is like yeah because the xo is the xo which is this official title, the executive officer but but the old man is the even if he's the the co i i think he's barely called that yeah, you know and so so i i guess um the the and this is the reason why things like that don't change because people don't really don't really realize it and even if they do they can't get out of the system anymore, um and they are sort of like an uh like an addict you know they they they, uh thirst for the affection of this this father figure which he managed to become for mostly all of them and, um and for him it works because you know the whole system stabilizes itself right, so you have the bad boy that everybody's angry at so nobody's angry on the commander even if even if he's the one making the bad decisions right. And he has a crew that trusts him, right like to hell and back and they will do anything for him so of course this works especially in a environment like this where uh your population is is at the brink of extinction right, because you need people to do stuff that they've never done before, and they need somebody they trust so this is a safe a self-stabilizing organization and construct that is functional And this is the problem that... Systems like that actually work to a certain point. You know, I think I've mentioned this before that I have clients that are sort of, prisoned in a lot of relationships because other people rely on them and they can't really move, right? Because there are so many people that want something from them and need them and are actually reliant on them. But because this gives you a sense of purpose and gives you a sense of acknowledgement, because every now and then they actually will say thank you, this is a functional, not good, but a functional system in which you're in. And it works, you know, you need this. I mean, they're being chased. By the Cylons, right? So, they need to pull like 18-hour shifts or something. And you wouldn't do that for just a commander. Absolutely. Yeah, you'd do it for the old man. Yeah, you'd do it for the old man. Yeah. This is scary. It is. What have you done? I'm very sorry. Gosh. Dear listeners, I will just say, this episode was Mark's idea. So, if you're terrified, it has nothing to do with me. I am only taking part in this. Yes but also um for the ones that that are you know maybe thinking about what relationships they're in in their jobs in their families uh with friends you know, this is something you have to you have to consider that that if you're wondering why i mean, you you may encounter this as much as i do um in your work that people sit in front of you and tell you yeah i know i need to change this, And this is usually the point when I want to punch them in the face, because if they could change it, they wouldn't be talking to me, nor would they, right? So, the question is, why don't you? If you have realized that you need to change this, why don't you? And why aren't we talking about what this is actually, what the positive side of this is. Right? Because like an addiction to heroin or nicotine or something else like a substance addiction, it has a positive side right it has some sort of benefit for you because otherwise you wouldn't do it and and um self-stabilizing functional, even if toxic organizations are the reason why they exist because they work they get one thing done very very very well, and this is why they don't fall apart yeah, The political system of the UK, the electoral system, first past the post, you know, is the worst idea ever. It doesn't work. And this is actually wrong. It works. It does work. You know, it gets the job done. Not good. Yeah. But it gets the job done, right? That's it, yeah. Bureaucracy in germany is is horrific right, it gets the job done and it doesn't move it doesn't budge it changes very slowly right yeah and the control mechanism in the catholic church, that people that actually are not your bosses can control you by uh um psychological and spiritual and pastoral power, which is actually a word. Pastoral power is a word. It's actually a concept, yeah. Meaning, I can control your conscience and your guilt and stuff like that, and your redemption. And if you look at that, why would people even expose themselves to this? Because it gives them a sense of right and wrong. It gives them orientation. So, this is a toxic system but because it gets one thing done very properly it works. Are you saying like that's the same with these relationships as well? Yes. Because something works in these relationships as much as they are, like it would be better to get out of them because one thing works or some things work. Kara gets a father. Kara gets a father. Adama gets obedience and a daughter and full control. And we haven't covered Lee yet, but he probably, I don't know if, I mean, we could just. Jump to him because i don't i don't really see that that he might be trying to get out of the system, i mean we've touched on this like a few minutes ago um he may be trying to get out of this which is maybe the actual reason he's angry on his father at his father sorry. Yeah because i mean he's the one that goes off on the president's side right so he's created as much as he's part of the military, he's also almost like he's got one foot in his father's camp and one foot somewhere else. Mm-hmm. Like he's trying to put some boundaries in. In a way, he's trying to grow up. Yeah, yeah. Trying to find his own way. I think we've heard them talk and Lee says to his father that he didn't know they were choosing sides. But in a way, they are. They really are. He's trying to figure out his own side. He's trying to figure out, what his convictions are. Yeah. And I'm curious to see what happens to him, because I'm also sort of wondering, does the president see this? And so almost she's in a way using him. She's manipulating him in the way that Commander Adama's manipulating Starbuck. And or i wonder whether he will actually like whether lee will stand up to her not necessarily stand up to her but will be able to kind of be like actually this is what i want or this isn't what i want and really be able to understand what it is that he, personally wants without the influence of other people. Well if he did he would only go from one uh abusive system into another. Gosh yeah. So if he really is self-reflective then then he may be able to to see that and try to keep himself out of both of those toxic systems, because i mean if if commander adama is the father of the fleet and the people she's the mother isn't she. Yeah that's how i was sort of seeing it like It's like separate families. So, Lee is kind of going between mommy and daddy. Do you know, I don't like him. Oh, really? I really do. It's the Harry Potter paradox, really. Tell me. What do you mean? So, Lee always knows what is right. Okay? He always does what is right. Like, objectively right. Okay? He never gets accused of anything. So, he never has to answer for anything. because he's always in the clear, either because somebody else gave him his order or because he did something right and nobody can argue against this. Right? Right. If he's angry at other people, then it's a holy anger, like a righteous anger. It's okay to be angry at those people, okay? Right, yeah. So he is like this glass-wearing, witty guy in school that nobody liked. Okay? Because he had all the answers and he always knew what the right course of action was. Right. Smart ass. A smart ass. Thank you. And if you've ever listened to The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, then you know that they found out that what they hated most was a smartass. Yeah. And it's no. No, seriously. Yeah. He's like that. And this is probably, or maybe this is the reason why people react so annoyed sometimes when they talk to him. Right. You know because he always you know they they have a conviction they they're trying to save something okay so, komadrodama is trying to save his position as father of of everybody, uh kara is trying to save a position as as the beloved daughter uh trying to look up to her replacement father or substitute father and and, you know along comes lee and tells all of them yeah okay this is Fine, but this is the objective good thing. And everybody rolls their eyes because they know. They know what the good thing is. Yeah. But that's beside the point. They're trying to save something that is very dear to them, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, this is what you mean about him being the smartass. I was thinking as well of the episode where Starbuck basically tells him, you know, you're trying to be everyone's friend. Yes. Or what was it, you know, just slap me on the mouth and get me to take my pills. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And he's, in this moment, in this very scene, he's not a very good superior. He's not. Because you have to do stuff that you're maybe not very comfortable with, but you have to because of your role. Yeah. And this is very good, actually, that you bring this up. He's actually trying to be every... I don't know if he's really trying to be everybody's friend. I think that would be a bit under complex. But he's definitely not trying to agonize people. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, he doesn't want to hurt anyone or upset anybody. Yeah, and he's not... I'm having a hard time describing this. If you look at Kara, she's definitely damaged, okay? Sol Tai is damaged and an addict. Look at anybody else that we've seen so far At the chief At his girlfriend Right? Look at, Carl Agathon Who's being Who crashed down On this one planet And is very very alone with With this one Cylon, They all have like deep Deep rooting problems and are very, very human. Yeah, and he's supposed to be frustrated and angry because he lost his brother. Yeah. Okay, right? And he can be angry. Definitely. But he's so grown up. Yeah. And so adult and so rational and it's boring. Yeah, but he's also not. like he's like in the way that you're sort of saying you know he annoys everybody and i think there's something about, like when you've when you've got that person who you're around who seems like as if he has all the answers and he's got his shit together but actually because he's annoying people it means he hasn't got his shit together. Oh fair point. Like if he's brushing everybody up the wrong way there's something he's not doing right and i think that's the you know his own, lack of self-awareness in that he can't see he can't see the impact he's having on other people by being this nice guy, and because he's not he's not real oh you know no one wants to be around someone who is perfect. Oh And then you know points shit out to people that is really obvious. You mean this is like like a character as well like like a mask yeah. Yeah like almost like an insecurity of like oh if i'm perfect then maybe people will like me not realizing that actually no one wants anyone to be perfect we all need to have flaws that way. We all feel human i mean you you want to punch him only because he looks so good right. Well there's that too but even that it's like you know he's clean cut. Like he's one. Of those like stereotypical good-looking guys yeah you know um. In spite the fact he's the actor's british actually. Oh right oh i didn't realize a good accent. Isn't it yeah listening listening to him uh having a british accent like when he speak in an interview you know when he oh right goes back to it feels wrong because he looks so he looks so american which is, which actually drives home your point you know he's like this this perfect image of the of the good-looking successful uh um perfectly balanced u.s. American guy you know absolutely yeah body. For everyone yeah. Yeah yeah that's annoying yeah. Oh boy i hadn't. Thought of that no i hadn't it was only like as we're talking i'm like oh hang on a second he reminds me of somebody, um and i'm like how many people do i know that are like really self-righteous and you know yeah and i think it is the insecurity of not being able to be like, I'm a flawed human being, and that's okay. And also, you could ask the question, why on earth would he feel he has to rub, his righteousness into everybody's face? Mm-hmm. You know like he could keep to himself there are instances in which he's actually very courageous i think because he he does the thing that is objectively necessary yeah, you know and um i mean for example he fired on the olympic carrier uh potentially killing hundreds of people right. I mean i was in floods of tears in that in that scene. There you go so so it's not like he can't make hard decisions and it's, he he has a very good sense of right and wrong but that's actually it under it underlines what you just said because in these moments, he isn't uh telling everybody you know this is this is the right thing to do fire at will right he's struggling you can see him struggle so this is like the real lia dharma that that is insecure, of what the right thing to do is, and he's like I don't like this and, even after the fact he's really having trouble, working with it and trying to come to terms with the fact that he just fired on a civilian ship, but then on the other hand he's this very clean cut guy and you go like oh my god you know check your privileges you white like seriously, at the beginning of the series his most prominent problem and he's very arrogant in the first few minutes his overall main problem is that he has to face his father, yeah white boy step aside for people with real problems. But that's basically it isn't I mean he's the, Typical privileged white guy. I don't want to make this a racial thing, but this is part of it, I think. Right? Yeah. And he's never dirty. He's never dirty. Yeah. I'm just thinking like after the bomb, he must have got a bit dirty when he got punched by the prisoner guy. Yeah. Yeah, so maybe he is becoming more dirty, but he starts out as this clean-cut, US-American picture of a man. Right? Yeah. And almost slowly, he's becoming a bit more real, a bit more rounded. Yes. He's got some more edge to him. And, you know, getting back to the question that we've asked about the others as well, if he went to your practice, and he would, he's the guy that would go to the practice. And to start answering my own question, I think the one thing that you had to work through if he lay on your couch and would talk to you is that you'd have to punch through this wall of fake self-awareness. He would tell you all the things that he has already worked out, okay? So all the things that he has thought about, all the things that he has dealt with, all the problems that he has already solved. And so, the... It's very tempting to simply go like, yeah, okay, so you're fine. You don't need a therapist. See, with those people, I always ask, like, well, why are you here? Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. And I would argue that he actually has some stuff to work through. The daddy issues, for starters. Yeah. But his need to tell everybody what's the right thing. Yeah yeah i feel like i've need to keep a closer watch on him because i've i feel especially after that episode where he struggled with like shooting down the ship i felt like i really felt for him, and so i've always like liked him a little bit i've got a bit of a soft spot for him understandable yeah understandable. Um i don't know i've i've i've yet to develop some soft spots, I guess. Well, I wonder if you see him differently because you're both men. Oh, yeah. Well, there's that. Certainly, of course. He looks like 10 times better than I do. Of course, I hate him. What do you think? Seriously. And he's, I mean, I don't know about the actor, of course, but the character of Liyadama is like he's respected, he's successful. Um and and he's uh at times at least a good leader at least well he he has the rank you know uh he's good looking women love him, even though if you think about it there's no wife girlfriend yeah or boyfriend for that matter. Yeah but that's also kind of why i like him because he doesn't seem like a like riker from star trek you know. He's not like. Women just fawning all over him and so he seems like a like the sort of guy like i would you know we'd have chats and we'd like chat about things and you'd hang out with him and he's just everyone's friend. God i hate him so much, my god yeah of course of course there's that i mean you you don't like uh, the the better image of yourself sitting in front of you so no yeah that's interesting he is he is so good looking it's not the face you know it's not just the face it's i mean you can he doesn't really show it, And I don't think you can see it in the series, but of course he has a six-pack. Oh, absolutely. Of course he has very beautiful muscles, right? So, yeah. All right. So, to conclude, Nalima, what have you learned? What is it that sort of sticks with you from what we talked about? I think I forgot how much I can be affected by characters. And actually, this has been a really good sort of learning episode for me to be able to reflect on myself and my relationships with other people, as well as my relationship with myself. Um and it's been interesting to kind of notice the bits where i've been a bit like oh actually this might be nice to take to to my poor therapist um and make him suffer a bit more um, and like to discuss some of these things that i've noticed in myself of like like you were sort of saying you know lee really irritates you it's like actually there's some things that i've noticed for myself and what we've talked about today of like, this will be interesting to explore a bit further for me this has been a surprising twist of events like in the show itself to recognize just how connected these three characters are, and recognize how connected i already feel to these characters as well and we're only a few episodes in. For me, it's the revelation about, I guess, some sort of idol for me, like the character of Commander of Adama, who I personally felt was sort of a role model for me. And in a way still is. So, I was surprised to see that I was trying to defend him while I couldn't at the same time ignore all, the signs of a toxic relationship. I mean, it's not really a toxic relationship. He's not gaslighting people. He's not derailing people or something. But it's not really healthy to have this daddy-like element in a professional relationship with professional colleagues of yours, especially subordinates, right? So, a leader and a manager can be very personal, that is one thing, but never use that as a tool to lead other people. So um and he does that and and uh which which again um, makes you feel like even a a set character as as commander adama has his flaws right and only because people are experienced and old it doesn't mean that they are wise right. That's a really good point. Yeah so so this is sort of, yeah, that was hard for me and I'll take this with me, I guess. And also I found it very important to point out that that, People tend to judge things very quickly, especially about themselves. You know, what we mentioned, when people say, I know I should be changing this, I know I should do, yeah, right, okay, why aren't you? And try to acknowledge that things that are not good at the moment have reasons why they exist. Yeah. And if we ignore them, we ignore the positive side of something that feels wrong to us or feels negative to us. But there's more to that. Things are rarely purely good and purely bad. So, in acknowledging the fact that something that has a downside for you also has an upside for you helps you deal with it. Because the answer usually is not okay, something is not good, and I've realized it's not good, so I'm going to kill that thing, okay? I'm going to delete it out of my life. No. One, you won't, because you haven't looked at it properly. And two, if you do it, if you do that, you will delete everything that is good about that certain thing, about that relationship, about that certain fact of your life, right? Like if you're working for a company and you don't like the work environment there, okay, why are you staying? Because it has some sort of benefit. If you look at that benefit, then you can start making better decisions. Because, for example, you can think about not quitting your job, but changing your job. Right? Yeah. And try to include... Uh certain strategies in order to deal with the things that you don't like you know you don't have to to be radical about your decisions yeah well it's that either. Or mentality isn't it. Exactly rarely helpful rarely helpful you know me versus them yeah equally not helpful, so yeah and this is this is i think something that we can actually see here and um so yeah that's what i'm gonna take from this episode, all right and on this note i think we'd like to end don't we, yes we hope that you've enjoyed listening to us um maybe you've heard some things that are uh interesting for your lives uh out there and that can maybe help you, see things from a different angle which is sometimes only the only thing that that you need in order to change things for the better so take care of yourselves take care of each other and always remember the Cylons look like us now, until next time on Sci-Fi Therapy so say we all. So say we all.