Hello and welcome to Sci-Fi Therapy, the podcast where we put our favorite sci-fi shows on the couch. In this first season, we're going to take a deep dive into Battlestar Galactica, the version from 2006. And in today's installment, we will be putting people on the couch again, meaning we will talk about the characters in the show and we will analyze them and see where they need fixing or what we can learn from them. I am Mark, a theologian from Germany. And I'm Nelima, a psychotherapist based in London. And as always um every episode that is actually important to this very topic, we will have watched separately and then we'll go from there and just you know put together everything that seemed important to us. Before we dive in make sure you hit that subscribe button so you can follow us on this journey. And if you like what you hear, leave us a review to let us know what you think. Yes, please do. And the characters we will be looking at today are Boomer Sharon Valeri and her men, Carsey Agathon and Chief Galen Tyrrell. So, Nalima, shall we put those on the couch? Absolutely. Very good. Okay, so, Nalima, you actually had the idea to talk about Boomer, Hilo, and The Chief. So, to be perfectly honest, I am very, very curious what you wanted to talk, about them. Because, you know, to me, at first glance, they didn't have that much of a character development up to this point. Mm-hmm. yeah i don't think they have much character development necessarily but there's something about boomer at least from the beginning that really uh, struck me for example there's like a scene and i'm never ever going to be able to name episodes and things like that but at some point there was um, you sort of you see boomer she's you know she's saving the people off the planet and she's like devastated like leaving helo behind um. And you know she seems really compassionate and kind and everything and then at one point there's something that happens in the scene and you realize fuck she's a Cylon, and it really shocked me and I think I guess maybe this is kind of the point that they're trying to make in the show is that they look like us now but for, I don't know and obviously I'm probably going to sound crazy but when I was sort of thinking oh they look like us now it's like well they're still going to look evil and you know you'll be able to spot a Cylon, even like, you know, the hot woman, there's something quite sort of, um, not evil, but very sort of determined about her. Whereas I think for me, Boomer seems so sort of like a well-rounded, compassionate, like all the good things that we think about humanity. Like when we think of a good human being, for me, that is Boomer. And so then that she's this Cylon, which for me, for some reason, I have, I still have a binary of like good evil in my mind. And I'm guessing that will probably change over time, but the minute that's where I'm at with it. And so I'm like, she can't be a Cylon. She's not evil. She's really kind and compassionate. And perhaps that's also what they want, what the showmakers want us to feel, is to sort of feel this kind of push pull of like, but she can't be a Cylon and she is a Cylon. Um and i think also the other thing i like like being a feminist and wanting you know equal rights for men and women, i find it quite exciting that there is a female character who has two men rather than usually it's like the men who have you know all these women after them and what have you. But she doesn't have two men does. She true no there are two boomers and the two separate boomers have their own individual partners um, yeah and i wonder if that's also maybe like a sort of societal thing of like, well a woman woman can't have two men you know if she's two people she can have two different men. Yes and i would if we if we're going to jump into that um i i think this might also be like, like a what if situation. Right. Like let's say you you're in a marriage or at least in some sort of very serious relationship and, I don't know let's be deeply and terrifyingly honest, and, If you out there, dear listeners, belong to those people that never looked back and never second-guessed yourself, congratulations to you. But I do believe that the, and I don't have any evidence to support this, maybe you can jump in there, Nalima, having read much more scientific papers than I have. But it is my impression that people usually, at some point, second-guess their own decisions, including the decision of marrying a certain person. Like, am I in this… You know, it's like, what would have happened if I had married, I don't know, Rebecca instead of, I don't know, Mary or something. You know? yeah yeah yeah. Like what had what would have happened if if i um, if i had chosen to stay in france instead of going back to the uk you get my my idea okay so um, and and i think this is this is sort of a very clever way to introduce uh a, an alternative um alternative uh universe without actually introducing an alternative universe. That's so clever. I hadn't seen it that way. You know, and in all those sci-fi shows that deal with alternative universes, it's a huge what-if question. Yeah. I don't know if you've ever seen those Looking Glass episodes in Star Trek. I think so. They're usually like through the mirror or something, you know, the title usually is. And there is this evil universe where, in Deep Space Nine, it's the Bajorans conquering the whole of the universe. And the Klingons are actually bad, which is funny because they are sort of in the normal universe as well. And, you know, but everything is twisted and everybody only thinks of themselves. And there's emperors and empresses and stuff like that. And, of course, in Doctor Who, there's loads of that. Um and in a lot of other sci-fi shows as well so um the question is what would have happened if, like i don't know if if boomer and uh helo met in flight school for example, or if they only just met on the the galactica um, but in in one if you if you want to call it that alternative universe She got involved with the chief, carrying with it all sorts of problems, because she is actually higher in rank than he is. So, this is like a thing that she is probably not supposed to do. And on the planet, she gets involved with Hilo. Like the Cylon version, the other Cylon version, because they're probably both Cylons. You think helo is a cylon. No no no but both boomers are. Oh both boomers are okay. Okay like there isn't very confused no no there isn't like a a a, flesh and bone boomer and then there is a cylon boomer like they're not copying us they're probably all yeah because that's what we don't know at this point right. Oh, I thought we knew already. Well, you can guess. And, you know, having watched the whole show, it is very obvious. But, you know, it is at least possible that there would be like an original person that the Cylons just copied, but there isn't. Is there not? Because I did think that. I thought maybe this is, you know, like they have all of these people in like a vat, and then they, as soon as one person dies, then they reincarnate or however you want to call it from the original person. Yeah, well, no. Wow. I don't think I'm spoiling too much if I tell you that. Like there is a matrix or some sort of that, you know. There is a boomer model and a blonde hot woman model, and they have as many copies as they need. At one point, there can actually be hundreds of boomers running around because they need hundreds of boomers doing certain sort of jobs. And you do reincarnate. So, there is like a lot of other, a lot more model boomers or boomer models that are asleep or not awake at any point. And they all seem to be connected. Okay. Right but still um you know but there's not like it's not like they they abducted, like uh a a sharon valeri at some point and. Then started copying. Her they are all engineered from scratch right so um at least i think that's the case and. Um What we can say for certain or i think at this point is very it seems to be apparent at this point anyway. Um is. That the boomer on the Battlestar Galactica doesn't know that she's a Cylon. Yeah yeah I mean that's the other bit that's interesting because like one of the episodes I was watching this morning before our um, before we started recording you know Sharon's on the planet and she's all she's very aware of what she's doing she's very, um what's the word very calculatedly acting like this you know poor woman in distress so helo feels protective of her and, he follows her and wants to look after her because that's the cylon plan with him and then like you say boomer on the ship has no idea she's totally innocent um, and she just seems and even then they still seem like the same person, despite the fact that one is calculated and one is innocent. So, I guess the interesting question at this point would be, why in one version of herself does she choose the chief to be with and why does the other version of the same character, and they are copies, like identical copies. Why does the copy choose Carl C. Agatha? It is a plan. You know, she seems to be directed. And this is like a plot. Okay. But still, I would argue that... I mean, it seems to be a bit genuine, doesn't it, to you? Yeah. Like, it's not like a secret agent that gets told to seduce somebody. Right? Yeah. Although I did feel like with Hilo, that's what's happening, is she's chosen to seduce him, or she's been told to seduce him. But with the chief, it feels a bit more natural. Yeah, it feels a bit more natural with the chief and a bit more like, yeah, just real. So my theory of alternative universes just ran aground, did it? Not entirely because i i think that's a clever um like if that is the case i think it's quite a clever cinematic trick to do it that way rather than you know to have like you know through the looking glass type episode right um, And then I guess we do find out later on what happens when those alternative universes collide. Well, I mean, there is this one scene, you know, marching inevitably into our direction where, should Hilo ever find out that Sharon is a Cylon, then there will be this moment where he asks her if anything was real. If all her emotions were real and to whom he was actually attracted to. I mean, that's a whole different can of worms that we can talk about when the moment arises. But just to jump ahead a bit, imagine that there would be a robot artificial intelligence version of your boyfriend, for example. Yeah. And you didn't know. and in two years from now you find out that that it's been ai so. Yeah yeah. I mean could you live with it could i mean is that even that that brings up the whole question of is is love to a machine actually real. Well i'm also thinking about therapeutic love as well actually and i don't know if you get this in your work as well where i have sort of said to clients you know i care about you or i love you, and it's almost been met with surprise and shock because the idea is that well i'm paying for a service here so you don't have any feelings for me, and it's like actually that's not true because if you spend enough time with somebody and you learn to know about them um you know you learn about them it's hard not to care about them, right and i sort of feel like it's in that way as well it's like a thing of um, i've seen this play out in polyamorous relationships as well of people like well who do you love more and it's like a thing of i do believe like for me personally i believe that all love is different, um and that you can love lots of people at the same time but it's all because those relationships are so unique, it's inevitable that the love is different and i don't mean that in like a you know romantic kind of way but in a logical you know like my relationship with you is different to my relationship with other friends and so my love for you as a result is different to my love for other friends. There's stuff you can do with me that you can't do with others and the other way around yeah. Exactly and so i just think it's like a and so i get like i feel like that question then And like if that hypothetical question comes up, it comes from a place of insecurity and a need of like to have that old fashioned idea that, you know, you know, my boyfriend will only love me and I will be the one that he loves the most in the entire world. And that's how it should be. And I just don't think that's realistic. I think, you know, if you are monogamous, then perhaps your partner has a certain level of priority in your life. But I don't think necessarily that priority is about love and affection. I think it's more about actually, what was it? I love Downton Abbey as well. So I feel like I'm going to kill off a whole load of listeners by admitting that. But um one of my favorite lines is um uh, one of the characters she was like you know like how how can you love me or something like this and he says to her i've seen you naked i know you in a way that nobody else knows you right and that for me is like a thing of this is why, i love my partner in this way when he loves me in this way because he's seen me naked and And like, thankfully for you, you never have done. So it's like he knows me in a way that you will never know me. Does that make sense? Yes. Yes, it does. And it reminds me, of course it does, of the original word for having sex in the Holy Bible. Oh, God, really? Yes. and and i'm trying to um to look up a a a better word than i have in mind right now um let me just let me just see um, no well yeah okay you can you can do that i guess um, If in the Old Testament, two people have sex, then it doesn't say, and then they had sex. Okay. Or then they made love or some such stuff, you know? Right. They say, and he recognized her. Wow. Wow. So, meaning they shared a so intimate relationship that, he sort of knew her or started to know her in and out. Which sounds more sleazy than I was aiming for. I'm very sorry. Oh, my God. That puts it in a whole different way, in a whole different light. Yeah, so, meaning, yes, there are, and, okay, if I'm allowed to stray a bit. Of course. And I hope I'm not getting too, weird here. If you look at the past, and I'm sorry to say this, but for us, it's already decades. We are not in our 20s anymore but if you if yeah yeah i i looked in the mirror this morning and i i i think i can't deny it um, if you if you look back on how relationships used to be when you were in your 20s, and your relationship right now or even um the one with your ex-husband And if I look at my relationships, then they have changed a lot. Meaning that the question of why do we do stuff or the answer to that question has actually changed. And I'm starting to realize that there's a difference between intimacy and sex. That is a different thing, right? So, to be intimate with somebody means to have a very, very deep connection. And that deep connection can be performed, you know, a tool to achieve that intimate relationship can be sex. Yeah. But it can also be a touch, holding hands, a kiss, just listening to somebody, to your partner, right? And I'm not saying that sex gets less important. I'm saying that what sex is for changes. Yeah. Well, it sounds like you're recognizing the tool that sex can be. Exactly. Like it can be a way of bringing people together and being closer, which I think is a bit that maybe gets forgotten. Well, a lot. Because as in this world driven by performance and driven by…, By faster, bigger, larger, better. You know, you try to be just that, you know. The question, is he or is she good and bad, is already wrong, I think. Because that's, you know, in the end, that's a question of how two people connect, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. If, you know, if you and your partner actually work as a couple... While coupling, while being in bed together, depends on if you two have a good way of communication, because in partnerships, it all comes down to communication. And sex is a way of communicating. So, this actually means that, yes, indeed, you can have very different connections to people, which would actually undermine what you just said about polyamorous, relationships because I talk to you differently than other friends would talk to you. True, yeah. So, the way you have sex with your boyfriend would be very different from how you had sex with other men before him, right? Sure, yeah. Obviously there were no other men, but yeah. Before him? I'm joking, I'm joking. You're kidding me. There was at least one. So, what I mean is that, yes, this is, of course, different. And so, you actually can't compare them. Yes, yeah. I think that's more what I was trying to get to, is that I think we make this mistake of thinking that, not you and I, we, but we in general make this mistake of thinking that we can compare love, and I don't think it is comparable. And that's why I like this idea of that love is infinite, it's not finite, and we can love many people, and you cannot compare one love for another love. Exactly. And if you, I don't know, have you, I think the English title is The Name of the Rose? Yeah. Maybe? Is it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right, okay. Yeah, somewhere, yeah. Yeah, so do I. And there is this one scene where the old monk talks to the young monk and asks him if he may, because um, if you dear listeners don't know the plot um it's a very good sean connery movie um that i deeply recommend watching and it's about i. Would say i would recommend the book more. Oh that that yeah i never read it it's amazing and also apparently deep disgrace. Well umberto echo apparently the guy who wrote the book he hated the film and hated it so much that the next book he wrote was too complicated for the screen but it also means i never finished the second book. Right um on better echo i think was a theologian so there's a good reason not yes but yeah okay um, theologians are really bad uh authors i think yeah but yeah okay so, and so if you're more of a of a uh film person dear listener then then i deeply recommend the film if you like book uh, book reading more than feel free in any case um the um, the story is about a uh a murder in a monastery and um the the main character played by sean connery uh gets called in because um he, the murder needs solving and he has an apprentice a very young monk and that young monk at one point, Gets involved with a, I think it's a peasant girl Or something And so. He gets laid Basically And he talks to his master And wants to talk about sex, But he doesn't use the word sex, he uses the word love. And so, he asks his master, have you ever truly loved? And the master asks, of course I have. You know, I've loved every Greek philosopher there is. And he was like, no, that's not what I'm talking about. And then his master turns around and asks him, could it be. That you mistake lust for love? And that is really, on the nose, if you will, you know And of course you can have like a deep love, Without fucking them Yep, yeah. Right? Yeah, absolutely. And which is not to say that this is like the ideal. It's just that there are very, very many ways. I think the old Greeks knew at least seven words for love, describing very different, types of relationships and intimacies with people. And so yeah you can actually be very very different which may be the answer to um, to the question why boomer would in one reality choose uh agathon because you know i'm still running on the premises that she actually, sort of loves and likes him you know even if even if this is a plot and and this seems to be a plot but you know let's just, assume for now that she actually feel something for him if they can actually feel that that is a different issue but you know being a Cylon and being a machine can they actually feel um but for the moment, she might choose Hilo because um he's he's very different and she has a very different kind of love for him and in her world like you know maybe she just got uh. I don't know alive started booted right before her mission right okay so her whole world consists of this one man, there is no chief tyrell because she never actually met him this yeah copy of boomer never met galen tyrell so, um she gets she gets involved with with helo because then they match up and they would they're both officers, so why would she have like like what What does she find in Chief Tyrrell in the first place? Yeah. And in the other reality, she loves Tyrrell because of, I don't know, his working hands maybe. They are very different. He's really rough and she isn't. Yeah, yeah. And maybe this opposites attract each other thingy. And on the other hand, and we were, right before we started this episode, because the Lehmann and I are who we are, we went from the first name of Chief Turrell to a German bishop. Don't ask us why. And he's royalty, or he was royalty. He's dead now. Yeah. And he was royalty. And we were talking about, royalty and normal people, or as you might call them, peasants. And, Hilo is much more her level, isn't he? You know, both being officers. True. Yeah, I hadn't seen it that way, actually. So, this is much more like her level and the chief isn't. So, there is like a societal gap, I guess, right? So, but, you know, and this would actually illustrate the things you get out of a relationship. So, let me try and get off on a tangent here. But maybe the roughness of a lower class guy, you know? And and i'm and i'm you know overdoing it on purpose at this moment but you know the the hairy back, rough face uh three-day beard uh dirty hands and chief tyrol is actually dirty you know there's grease all over him and he always wears this this red um it's not a uniform it's it's a working uh suit, you know and then you have carl c agathon who's always well shaven true yeah, Is he even on the planet where he has nothing and he's exposed to radioactive, to radiation, and he does get shaved, doesn't he? Yeah, it's a good point, actually. I did not even think of that. How does he look so clean? He even looks like he smells clean. Yeah, he does, doesn't he? He would be British if he didn't have a US accent. And it's so lovely. It reminds me of those British offices I think there was A scene in The Patriot, the Mel Gibson movie. And there's actually, there's a British guy who, of course, plays the bad person, the evil guy. That's what we are. Yes, that's what you are. And he's portrayed, I think, in the ruins of a house or something, shaving. Because that's what you do. That's the proper thing to do, right? Of course. And that's the difference. So, the one would satisfy the need for a rough guy, who knows how to take you, but who's also difficult to talk to maybe because he's not in touch with, his proper or emotional side as much. And then there's the other guy who's well-versed and really educated and upper class and stuff like that. So, they both have an appeal that's what i'm trying to get at so this this could be one thing what did you to um to switch the um the topic a bit, what did you think of boomer as a person because again a bit rough from my side at this point but she seems weak to me. Yeah well this is what i find interesting about her because she feels really contradictory, in the sense that on the planet with Hilo, she's acting very weak and very sort of pathetic. But then we know that this is a plan. So she's been strong enough to be able to put that plan into action. And that this weak version of her that she's portraying is a character, which for me sort of relates to the stereotype of the Southeast Asian woman being really delicate and petite and, you know, really weak and ladylike. And then on the ship, she's much more tougher and stronger, which I think is perhaps what maybe the attraction is between her and Chief. Like, she doesn't seem to me on the ship so elegant. She does have those moments. She does have those moments when you can actually see a very, very strong character, a strong person, whenever she pulls rank, for example, whenever she starts giving orders. But to me, it also, every time she does, it seems to me that it's sort of a last resort, like she doesn't want to, which makes me question why she ever got involved, with the military in the first place. Well, I also sort of see it as like a bit of, um, cause I guess maybe this, the other reason I like her is because I see similarities of like people pleasing in her of like me and her. And it's like, and for me, like I put, I will pull rank as a last resort because I'm not getting heard along the way. And so it's like the only time I'll finally get hurt. I'm not that I have rank to pull, but in terms of like, you know, having to be a bit more aggressive or having to be a bit more, well, these are my boundaries. You have to listen to me. It's like i only have i only like it's not even like i'd like doing it i do that only because it's a last resort because i haven't been heard up until that point, and i feel like that's what it is for boomer and i don't know if it's like a woman thing or, or what it is exactly because starbuck for example has a lot more presence and a lot more strength of character, but she's also strong all the time whereas i think if you're the sort of person that comes across as nice like boomer does to begin with i think you're almost sort of setting yourself up to fail, in the sense of you will need to show people that you are not just nice that you can also be strong like almost it's hard to believe that a nice person can also be strong, does that make sense. It does but it still leaves the question why would she join the military because that that is like But, you know, military works not on cooperation, at least to me. I'm sorry if I'm, you know, I never served in the military, so I obviously don't know. But to me, it all depends on the chain of command. And, you know, you don't advance yourself in the military because you're nice. Yeah. It's because you're consequent. Actually, you don't have to be a bad person, to have a career in the military. But again, what comes to mind, at least to me, is how did she get in there? Could it be that she got in there because of, for example, some sort of connection that she had or good grades? Like, do you know people that get into a certain position because they have good grades and they behave very well? And, you know, they have people that speak for them, not necessarily because they actually fit. You know like like the typical uh again probably um a stereotype here as well the um the asian person that becomes a doctor yeah yeah it's like it's. Not actually necessarily something they want but they've got the grades mommy and daddy are speaking up for them so they end up in that situation. Right so which means that that confronted with the harsh reality of for example an emergency room um they they um well they either survive, or they they just crumble and you know and sharon valeri uh seems to me at least very insecure on, and has already learned the fact that that you know pulling rank is actually setting up a boundary and making things clear, and she can do that so she has the inner strength to do it and without it she would have never made it in the first place i think but um. Apart from that she is um, she's not the the most most strict person as you just said she's not a careth race right no exactly and and so that that leaves me puzzled a bit about her, you know, because, you know, when you, when you are like that, when you actually believe in the goodness of other people and you believe in cooperation and you believe that all will be well and, you know, and, and just, just, uh, grab each other's hands and be, be happy. Right? If those sort of people resort to something like pulling rank or being very aggressive, then they tend to overdo it. Yeah. Right? Because they're not used to it or they're afraid of their own strength or they hate the situation that they have to actually do it. And it feels like a furious instead of controlled, anger or, you know, being superior to another person, which she is because she's higher in rank. Yeah. Do you get what I mean? Yeah. Well, yeah, because I'm thinking this was me in my 20s or even early 30s, to be fair, where because I wasn't used to putting up boundaries or putting, you know, being firm in my boundaries. I would then sort of let it build build build and i would scream at people to get them to listen to me whereas now because i am much more comfortable in those boundaries it's taken me a long time you know i'm in my 40s now, um yeah now that i am more comfortable it's like i don't have to scream and shout anymore i can be reasonable i can, it doesn't it also doesn't feel massive when i do it so now I can still feel like guilt and stuff because, you know, I don't know, it's still there. But I don't feel like the rage that I used to have when I was younger. Yeah. I recently heard the sentence that I sometimes get to hear that girls are better in school than boys. And every time I hear that sentence, I think, no, they are not better in school. They are better in adopting to the system of school. Absolutely. Because girls are raised to adapt still not all of them not every time but usually they are told behave be i don't know you know, be the way society expects you to be right this is not what boys get told usually no, and i would argue um and please correct me if i'm wrong, you know, coming from a white German guy, that Asians are doubly so. At least yeah i would say i don't want to speak for all asians um but from my family yeah even more so you'll you see it all the time there was um, i saw this video on instagram recently of um one of the ceremonies that um bengali people do after a wedding is right uh, you have the fish cutting ceremony um because i remember you telling me about a fish, yes yes yeah which never happened by the way i. Was very sad about that. Well because we didn't do it at my wedding because my ex-husband is pakistani so they don't really do fish in general um so they never did it i wanted to do it with my family but my family what's the point your husband's not going to appreciate it so. I wouldn't have i wouldn't have cared it's a fish it's just too funny okay. Yeah so much fun but anyway so the fish cutting ceremony is like the bride um usually it's like the day after the wedding right and so the bride cuts the fish up and cooks it for the whole family, but she's still in you know very fancy sari and jewelry you know not clothes you would wear normally when you're cooking food um, especially not when you're like chopping a fish and gutting it you know we're not talking about fish that you buy in the supermarket it's a whole fish that you will then chop up and you will descale it debone it gutter all of that kind of stuff and she's in a fancy sari and in this video, what you saw was her cooking the whole thing and then serving it to men just the men in the family including the husband, and one of the comments said something like well hang on what did the men do, and another comment responded and said oh the men go out and buy the fish and bring it back for the woman to cook um, so everyone has their jobs in a sense but it's that sense of well as a woman yes you are cooking it and you still have to look pretty and you still have to smile and, be accommodating, whereas a man can just go out, buy the stuff, come back and just sit there and wait for the food to be cooked and eat. Ah, that's, it's not easy to listen to that, is it? Yeah, because on the one hand, it's like, you know, this was a ceremony I wanted to do as well. Right. So it's so sort of like deeply ingrained, like this is a tradition and I like traditions, some traditions, not all of them. But I, and I think this is why I like shows like Downton Abbey, because I enjoy the pomp and ceremony and tradition. And at the same time I have a level of critical awareness that I can question these things as well so I don't blindly follow but it's so sort of like, incredibly deeply ingrained to be a people pleaser as a woman and in my family for example, and if I like god forbid like as I've got older I started to well to be fair even when I was younger I would go against things, and even when i was going against things so one of the things i did for example in my sort of i think i must have been late teenager and my family are muslim, but it's it's a bit complicated because my mom's side of family are very strictly muslim my dad's side of the family a bit more casual with their islam right and i, had read the quran at this point and i was very deeply devout and i was like it's so and because we are bengali as well we have a lot of hindu cultural traditions, that we follow So, one of the things that we do is we touch people's feet, as a sign of respect. So, you'll touch your elders' feet. Ah. But Islamically, that's wrong. Because you never did that with me. That would have been weird. Yeah. Uh, no, but also you're not my elder. You're just a few years older than me. You should touch my feet because I'm more respectable. It's fine. It's no, it's totally, it's, it's absolutely fine. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Whatever. Um, but, um, so what we, but in Islamically, you're the only person you're supposed to bow in front of is God. And so this. Is what I said to my family was I refuse to touch anyone's feet because I'm now very religious and I will only bow in front of God and everyone was horrified. So even though. I was doing something that was you know technically good because it's Islamic because it was going against what the family believed it was like no you're not allowed to do this plus you're a girl whereas when my little brother said he was going to do this everyone was like oh well done that's so brilliant. Yeah right so and and um, i i you know to me it seems that uh the same might might go for boomer at this point you know she has adopted to the system and she's very good at that so she is adopted, she has the ability to adopt to every system she's put in so uh, she gets into the military and um and and you know adopts to that system, but in her heart she is not a very violent person, she refuses to use her weapon as much as she can and um if you compare i i have this this this huge issue with women in movies especially in action movies, okay because whenever action movies try to portray, a strong woman, they make them look silly for some reason. I don't know how they do it, but they manage to make them look as if they are playing to be strong while not being strong at all, right? Can you give me an example? Um, well, I guess the best that comes to mind for me right now would be Counselor Troy in Star Trek, who in the, I think, first four seasons is only supposed to fall unconscious whenever some strong emotion comes along. The same goes for Natasha Yar, by the way. Yeah, even though she's a security officer. Yeah, but she doesn't seem strong. No, she doesn't. Compare her to every single woman in the Matrix movies. Every single one of them. Yeah, yeah. None of them are weak. None. Right? Yeah. And they still have this problem because they want to portray female characters as still female. So they tend to inadvertently or absolutely on purpose their body features because they're all very slim you rarely see any. Broader women let's put it like that so women with some kilos on, they're all very slim and of course talking about it now i can't name you a movie that is actually doing this well right you know i'm sure the moment i pressed the stop button on this recording, um three movies pop into my mind but right now i can't yeah i can't do any of them um, but you know for example a a movie that really make it gets this gets this right i think and this is not a a real movie it's um it's an enemy series or enemy movie would-be ghost in the shell, and the main character who is uh in a very um. Who is very sexualized i think you know um okay um, uh the um i can't remember her name right now but it's the main female character right okay um and and she's always varying, not enough like like very few clothing and you can, you know, but this never plays a role actually. She's very strong. And the actress that voices her is, you know, she's not very high-pitched. It's not like, it's a very confident role, right? Right, yeah. Even though she's portrayed like one of those very bad female characters in old action movies from the 80s where they, you know, just wore like a bra and some loincloth and that's it. And that is supposed to be body armor. But I guess you get where I'm going with this. Often they struggle. And when you look at Sharon Valeri, the way she holds a pistol, it's like she's shaking, right? It's not a very confident body posture. It's not a very, it's like she, rarely uses that thing. And she's in the military, for God's sake, right? Yeah. And she always seems so damn insecure. Look at Cara Thrace. She looks like she sleeps with her gun. She looks like, you know, she always knows what she's doing. And she's like very overconfident and very, and it's not like she loses her, female side at all, you know. And I would argue that those are not opposites. Being strong and being female are not opposites at all. And this is what a lot of movies and series don't get really. I think so, yeah. And Buma is one of those people that, I guess if I met her, would have a hard time respecting. Yeah. Because half the time, she seems to be playing somebody that she isn't. I have to be a strong commander. I have to be a strong leader, you know? And strong leaders are. And then some drop-down menu in her brain pops on. And she does sort of, she crosses off every item on that list, right? Yeah. Whereas Cara Thrace doesn't give a shit. No. And because of that is a good leader. Yeah and also i mean she also has like vulnerability as well. Yes you. Know it's not like she's like a block of strength and you can't break through the barriers or anything. Exactly like. A sort of a stereotypical man who is stereotypically strong she's a nuanced character whereas at this point in time at least boomer is is not she's unsure of herself she's insecure. Yeah and you know what usually helps because i've seen that i've seen that in in people in in my line of work i've seen people that um get overlooked a lot, yeah that don't get taken seriously and the answer to that is to focus on your own needs more yeah to not give a fuck about everything else and and the needs of others, until you know to a certain point of course but yeah but you know to focus more on what you want and what you need, and it has the strangest effect the moment you start caring about yourselves, caring about yourself the moment you start making time for the things that you find important, you know, draw pictures, listen to music, to do a hobby, you know, to do stuff that only that is only important for you. The moment you do that, The world around you will start pausing and recognizing you. They will start to actually listen to you. I think I can put this out there without my wife getting mad. When I first started dating what was then my girlfriend, she had the same problem. She is a, and you don't have that, it's a very German thing, it's called PTA, Pharmaceutical Technical Assistant. Okay. And they work in pharmacies. They didn't go to university. They are the people that help uh the the pharmacist um you know do stuff get stuff done and and sell you the drugs and, uh and give you advice on how to take them stuff like that okay and um so, she's actually very well trained and she has done lots of of other uh trainings as well like you know on top she's an expert for uh, for several diseases and how to treat them stuff like very uh very well trained, and what all of her friends and her family would do is they would ask her look i have this problem with, this on my body whatever it is like you know i have a bad stomach i have headaches stuff like that what should i take and then she would tell them you take this and this in this order for that and that amount of time. And then they would go to a pharmacy and do everything but the thing that she told them to do. Oh. They didn't listen at all. At all. Okay. Because she... Back then, was a bit like Boomer. Very clever, very well-trained, with a high amount of knowledge. But you didn't trust her for some reason, right? Because she, to others, seemed a bit weak. You know? Like, yeah, she knows her stuff, but it's like, you know, if somebody tells you a lie, but very confidently you are prone to believe that lie rather than believing the guy who's telling the truth, but in a very insecure way. So, and then she started her career and she's now, she's made huge steps in her career and she started taking care of her own needs and taking care of what she wanted more. And now when she tells people, you take that pill for a week, three times a day, they get back calling her i've missed it for half an hour is that a bad thing, right so nobody questions her anymore at all this is really really and i've seen this with um with clients of mine as well who um, get ignored by friends and family and the moment they start taking care of themselves they start um they start being recognized and respected by everybody else. This is a very interesting mechanism. I've never seen it fail so far. Well, I was about to say it's failed for me because I'm just getting kickback after kickback now that I'm like, no, I'm meeting my needs. And instead, I'm meeting people who are like, no, you can't meet your needs. You have to meet my needs. You've been meeting my needs all this time. You can't suddenly forget about my needs. Well, I would still argue that you are British and you are way too polite. All right, should we move to the men? Right. Is there anything much to say about them then? I was just thinking that. Is there so much to say about these boys? The most I found of bullet points I found was actually about Galen Tyrell. Okay. And the only thing that I found interesting so far is how can you be a man, Or that he actually That he is a man That seems to be very very comfortable With following orders, Like he has his own Universe right He knows his stuff And in his world Like down in the, In the hangar bay maybe Probably that thing is called, He's boss He's king okay He's king of his particular hill, yeah um and so so that works for him and and he knows his stuff and he knows how to repair the vipers and he knows how to how to do how to deal with with anything that is technical on on the battle star so that works that that's his world right, um but if they tell him to move right then he moves right like if if they tell him okay you have to start for what vipers then he starts for vipers he doesn't question, um if if six would be better or if two would be better and he doesn't question the orders themselves, yeah you know, like the one thing he does to step out of his his given role is when he starts the relationship with boomer which he isn't supposed to but other than that yeah. But does he think for himself, you know, outside of his little world? Yeah. But then I would question whether, like, anyone in the military should. Like, is that not the point that if you're in the military, you're not supposed to be like Cara Thrace. You are supposed to be like the chief. You shut up and you listen. Exactly. Exactly, which is why she runs into trouble all the time, because she doesn't conform to the system, and he does not. He is completely conformed with the system, and he does, what's expected of him. And so, he doesn't get into trouble, apart from having an intimate relationship with Boomer. But, you know, other than that…, and he's very respected isn't he. Yeah yeah that's it because even his team like him you know they all do we see this episode like where they all stand by him uh when he's um, he was accused of leaving the hatch open yes, and they all stood by him and they were like no no no wasn't him he was sleeping he was doing this and that's how he got caught was because everyone was standing by him but they didn't have a story that matched and they were all saying different things, so it feels like he's very yeah loved and respected. Yes of course because um he has a sense of of duty he has a sense of meaning and purpose you know he doesn't question that meaning and that purpose at all, You never see him argue, is it a good thing to hunt for Earth, to go on this quest to this mystic planet. He does not do that. He's very experienced, but, you never see him talk about, is it actually a good idea to go into that very dangerous nebula and get all the ammunition that we need in order to protect the fleet? Even if it's a very very vulnerable position and the silence are outside and can actually pick us off like like um like flies um, and so no no he does not that's what the old man says that's what we'll do. Yeah i was just thinking like in the episode that i was just watching this morning, um it was where they found this block of ice they're all like running out of water and they found this load of ice and he takes it to um, side uh what's his name salt high right and um the co and says yeah he takes it to the co and and basically just presents the information doesn't sort of say you know well maybe we need, uh maybe you know some of the prisoners will want to help us to melt this ice he just says here's the problem this is it what do you want to do tell me what you want to do and i'll do it. Exactly that's where he is and he's i would argue that he's probably happy there. Yeah in all honesty i have to say like on a personal note people like him i do envy him i do envy people who are able to just you know um, Not like float on, because it's not like he's living a meaningless, purposeless life. No, no, no. He has got purpose, and he seems really content with his world. Yeah, exactly. And to appreciate the simple things. It sounds like we are so smart right now, but I think that's not what you or I mean. No. It's about the ability to actually enjoy what you do. Yeah you know to be happy there to be a a uh a car mechanic, and to say yeah that's that's what i'm good at and this is what i what i joyfully do in my life and i mean this with with the outmost respect actually because um, the the opposite would be to um, be able to do a lot of things because you can and not being able to decide what to do because um if you specialize in something then you are good in one thing but that means closing the door on a lot of other things you and i will never become physicists anymore yeah yeah, this you know that that ship has left long time ago yeah um, Even if we find it interesting at times, right? Mm-hmm, yeah. And, I mean, you have had your share of very different jobs, and so have I. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, and other people are able to say, yeah, well, this is what I'm good at. So, I'm happy with it. I'm fine. Yeah. You know? Yeah, that's what I mean is I do envy it to have that level of, I don't know what it is, is it contentment or confidence or something? Because even in my current job, I love it. I have days where I feel like the chief, where it's just like everything works and it's wonderful and it's great and I get home and I'm like, oh, this was such a satisfying day. And then you know i'm seeing my supervisor this afternoon and i know i will list out all the things that i'm anxious about or i'm not confident about, and not that that feels like a weakness because that's what the space is there for is to make me a better practitioner but it's to get to that point where you feel so confident not even like in an arrogant way because i don't think that i don't find the chief arrogant, but it's just to have that sort of self-belief that i'm good enough and this is okay and i'm content i just think that's really beautiful and, I don't know how to get there. Yes, it is. And, this is a very valuable ability, really, you know. And I still can't. I'm very sorry if we sound so arrogant right now. You know, to people with a university degree talking about the normal people. No, this is not what we're trying to convey here. It's, you know, because you can have that everywhere. You can have that in any job, in any occupation, in anything that you do. You can develop the sense of, I can actually enjoy doing dishes. I can enjoy being a therapist. I can enjoy working with Excel spreadsheets, which I used to hate. I love a spreadsheet. And so, you know, this is an ability that you have to actually develop. And some people are born with it. And this at times feels a bit unfair. Yeah. You know, because we live in a world that teaches you that you need to get higher up. You need to have a university degree. You need to be clever, you know. And this is only a certain kind of cleverness like a university school cleverness um, to and you know if you have a university degree and somebody tells you okay here's some bricks there's some mortar build a wall and make it straight and you try it for the first time you get a whole new respect for people who do that sort of stuff, yeah yeah you're reminding. Me of um And am I interrupting you? No, not at all. Okay. You're reminding me of MJ Barker, who wrote a book called Rewriting the Rules. Right. I don't know if I've ever mentioned it to you. No, I don't think so. But they talk about, you know, you have like the freeze, flight, fawn, something else response. Oh, yeah, right. Mm-hmm. When stuff happens and we all have these sort of responses within us but they, compared those responses not to like you know say if i'm, about to be attacked by someone and i freeze but not in that sort of way more of like a how do we respond to life um, so for example i'm one of these people that fly so i have gone from like when something happens in my life i just i just keep going right and then you have other people who something happens to them and they look like they're frozen and they get called lazy and it's not laziness it's like this is their response to what's happening in their life you know i'm not it's not like i'm living my life better than the person that's frozen it looks like it from the outside because i look like i'm just carrying on but that's not what i'm doing i'm responding to whatever it is that's happened right and that's how i kind of see um, the chief is someone who is responding to life in a very secure kind of way so not from a place of like anxiety or something but from a place of, well actually i know who i am i know how i fit in the world and this is my response is i'm going to keep going in this measured calm way. This way of of tackling life works as long as the system around you is is kept afloat. Ooh. Yep. I think that's a good point. You know, if he was a clerk working in some government building, he would be in shatters right now. Um... That was not an English sentence, but you know what I mean? He would be shattered right now. In tatters and shattered. You can't combine this. Absolutely. Combine this, Mark. I like that you tried to. You did the German thing. We're doing new words here, people. In shatters. Love it. So, he would be completely devastated right now because, you know, his whole world would have fallen apart. Right because of the silent attack. Chief tyrell's world didn't he's in the military he works with with combat fighters and nothing has changed in fact, in fact i would argue that his world if at all uh got made whole again because the only reason he started this this relationship with boomer is because everyone was sort of uh, feeling like yeah the silent war is over and has been over for decades now and we don't need to adhere to the rules that much anymore right, if we remember the very first episode i think in the pilot as well uh, you know the galactica was was made partly into a gift shop and or in a museum and you know everyone was feeling like yeah this is sort of the end of of this, the military does still exist but we don't really need it you know and um it's, uh yeah so his his world started to slip away and now that there's war on um he he sort of gets back to his old self you know to chief tyrol yeah master yeah, and and boss of the the flight deck right. But should that ever change Should, this system Ever change Really change Fundamentally change Then he would probably be at a loss Probably be very confused Yeah And we may or may not see that in the future, Gosh Mark, so yeah so much about him how. Are you doing do you think um do you think this is it is there more to say. I would love to say something about helo i can't he's he's a posh american, that's a contradiction in itself and i don't know what to say about him other than he's he's even more uh one of those people that tries to do the right thing and has like a very strict moral compass even more than, Apollo? Thank you. Than Apollo. Yeah. So that at the moment pisses me off even more. He's too clean. He's very, very clean. And if he was in my office and laying on my couch, would we even have something to talk about like something. Meaningful well he'd never come though because he's so clean right probably not you know like there's nothing wrong with him like he would see as that because that's what i find just um not dislike distaste distasteful i find, difficult about people like him because they are so rigidly believing that, they are good that they can't see beyond that and I think that's also why he's so easy to take advantage of mm-hmm. Oh, you mean he's naive in a way? Predictable. Right. I think it's predictable. I don't know about naive, but I find him predictable. And that's why you can easily manipulate him because you know how he's going to react to... So when Boomer does the little girl thing where she feels a bit grossed out because the rats are eating the people, and you know that he's going to find that endearing and he's going to feel protective because he's that sort of person. Right. and he's not even what you'd call dashing. No. Like Apollo's dashing. He does have that sort of, yeah, but that also irritates me. Yeah, true. But, you know, they have, you know, Apollo has, like, the slightest edge, at least. And Hilo sort of doesn't. Right? I mean, he's, it's hard to describe, really. But he's the sort of guy who would live In American suburbia With his very beautiful Wife and two kids and I don't know, And his work life offers world problems. Yeah. And I'm not trying to talk down the problems that you have in suburbia. I'm just trying to say that he's like the image of the perfect American small town citizen. Right? Well, it's why he stayed behind. Right? Yes. Because it was the right thing to do. Yeah. Yeah which is it's it irritated me at the time because it's like on the one hand i see where he's coming from but this is what i mean about his rigidity because he's not recognizing that as a member of the military that actually he has knowledge he has experience that would be good for, humanity like for the future and like yes it's sad that they won't be able to take two more people on board and that's terrible, and at the same time it's like he's coming from this place of like sacrifices what we should be doing rather than recognizing actually he is valuable in the same way that he thought Gaius was valuable he is also valuable, even if he's just a body that is shooting Cylon that's valuable. It is humbling in a way isn't it. Yeah yeah, yeah i guess this is what. I remember uh being on a train uh this was decades ago and um, there was a guy talking to another person um they were talking about um the money that you get from the german government uh so you can actually study at university um, it is sort of a loan but a very cheap loan that you pay. Off. When you get a job. If you don't get a job, then you don't pay it off, you know. And, the guy that was arguing was like, yeah, so I did an apprenticeship and I'm a carpenter now and I'm very much willing to pay, my taxes so you people can study because you are way clever than me, way more clever than me. But what I want is I want to see you actually do something for what we give you. Right so he was very much aware of the fact that that he was supporting us and he seemed to believe that there is, a class of people that actually has better brains than others and so they deserve to be supported in order to use that brain right, and i had very mixed feeling about this um one of them was shame, because there's actually like a whole class of people that pay good money for me to study and in my case theology um, you know which which i i guess a lot of them would argue isn't really that important i, i think the reality is different because a lot of people think that theology is actually very important uh subject to study um because you need people that talk to god for you or something i don't know they have like very interesting um. Images and expectations to somebody who does that but still they didn't question the fact that the system is what it is they just wanted something out of it, and i feel like hilo is the same way like he's um he recognizes that gaius baltar is actually very important for humanity and he knows he's just a soldier you know, he may even though he doesn't say it he may even realize that, you know, given the opportunity or given the choice between Gaius Bolsa and Hilo, being set free in a very, very unfriendly and hostile world, Hilo is probably more likely to survive because he is a soldier, right? There is that, yeah. Yeah, so actually maybe he does recognize that he is important, but... Yeah, but it still feels like I'm sacrificing myself for the greater good, blah, blah, blah, which I think you and I both know does not actually happen. I don't know. No, it doesn't change anything. Well, for one, and the reality is that in reality, you wouldn't know what the greater good really is. Like if soldiers die in battle, right, and you look back on that, was any battle really worth it? Yeah. I mean, you could argue that battles that have been fought to rid themselves of, I don't know, British colonization were probably, maybe, worth it. Maybe the American Civil War in order to abolish slavery. Yes, maybe. But and well coming from a German perspective World War 2 was very necessary, right but World War 1 yeah, the great war any. Of them though in like uh i mean i'm being very generalist here, but i've always wanted for like if if people are upset with each other like rather than kind of like what we've got at the moment at least in the uk you know rather than riling up the common people, i'd like to see the right-wing government the right-wing leader and the left wings and all the leaders just get together and have a big fight and then whoever's left at the end of the fight will just rule us. Because it's. Like why are you sort of getting all of these people involved who actually don't like you say they don't understand the bigger picture of what it is that these people want. Yeah um and even calling them out them out on it isn't really changing anything but what i was was trying to get at is that if if like, somebody in any war at this point um went on sacrificing himself you know like in those action movies you know uh one of one of the heroes has a broken leg and can't can't get any further anymore and and he tells them so i have these three hand grenades and when the uh, the evil enemy comes then i'll detonate them and give you some time you know, um in order to get out of here and get on with the mission and yeah and in those movies it's always like so because he sacrificed himself the others could do the grand thing and end the war, But imagine some soldier in the Vietnam War fighting over, some hill who I believe had like numbers, hill 225 or something. And so they could take that hill, which means they took like 500 yards. Congratulations. And that's what you sacrificed your life for. And probably that hill gets conquered back in just a couple of days. So was it really worth it and and and he acts like those people he acts like those characters i'm. Sacrificing myself. Because others are more important and i'll see how i get on and yeah i don't know does that really happen. Yeah yeah i mean in i guess in battlestar galactica it has made a difference like we do find out it makes a difference well but on the more sort of in the smaller scales that you're describing you're giving as examples it's like a bit more, I don't know I guess it's why I find it really I feel like the leaders should all fight it out together because, I find like all the small individuals getting involved don't have an impact on the big picture in the way that we might like to believe that we as individuals do and. Nilima, be honest. Do you just want to see a cage fight between Nigel Farage, and your prime minister? I mean, yes, it would be hilarious, but... This is what I mean. It would. It would be hilarious. That I would pay to watch. You know, if people are complaining like no one is going out and voting, I bet that would get people voting. You know, if you want to increase the electorate. That's actually that's that's very very interesting idea holy moly i mean um, yeah i don't know i don't know what i mean i would probably pay just to watch that as well but i think it would be lame to watch i mean, would they even be able to go like two rounds they are very old aren't they, and they're both in the 60s kill. Them both off. Maybe but. Then you know you just kill them both off getting some young people who actually have fresh ideas and better ideas. Yeah you know i think you tried that and i've seen the ideas the young people had. Gosh i know it's like who are their influences. Oh Alright, yeah. But so, I would try to close this off, with an outlook. Like, this is what we can say right now. We have a partly insecure boomer who we find out would, choose very different men in different circumstances. And we talked about what that means for for us and what that could you know what that relates to in in real relationships and we talked about how how love can be very different to different people and um, yeah we can't really or we couldn't really say a lot about chief turol and and hilo agathon because, well, the chief is very, very happy where he is. And Carl C. Agathon is like the model American soldier. And at the moment, we hate him. Let's see if that changes. So I guess we'll see what happens in future episodes. Absolutely. Right. Okay. Well, then on this note, we'd like to end. And we hope that you've enjoyed listening to us. Take care of yourselves and each other and always remember the Cylons look like us now. Until next time on Sci-Fi Therapy, so say we all. So say we all.