Abenteuer Reportagefotografie – Podcast über visuelles Storytelling

Kai Behrmann: Visueller Storyteller und Fotograf

Since 11/2016 426 Episoden

Fatimah Hossaini: Hinter dem Schleier – Kampf für die Frauenrechte in Afghanistan (Interview in English)

05.11.2023 49 min

Zusammenfassung & Show Notes

Nach der Rückkehr der Taliban an die Macht im August 2021 ist das Leid der Frauen in Afghanistan wieder groß. Sie werden aus dem öffentlichen Leben zurückgedrängt, müssen sich unter der Burka verstecken und haben keinen Zugang mehr zu Bildung. Mit ihren Bildern kämpft Fatimah Hossaini für den Stolz, die Würde und die Rechte der Frauen in ihrem Heimatland. Sie selbst musste ihre Heimat verlassen und lebt aktuell im Exil in Frankreich.

(Interview in English)

Fatimah Hossaini im Internet:

Webseite: https://fatimahosaini.com/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/fatimahhossaini

Dieses Interview habe ich gemeinsam mit Ulrike Schumann und Thomas Pöhler vom "Fotopodcast" sowie mit Pia Parolin im Rahmen der Medientage des Fotofestivals "La Gacilly – Baden Photo" im August 2023 geführt.

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Transkript

Kabul was quite different, you know, during the last years of Republic. We had these beautiful colors, beautiful life that were going on, and people were enjoying the little things and they were trying to make hope, you know. You know, and the thing is that it was the last evacuations, it was 8 p .m. And I had to stay till tomorrow 5 a .m. And Taliban was just 10 minutes over there, you know, and you couldn't trust anything. And I was confused that what should I do now? It was a lot of fun to talk to Fatima in this big round. Fatima is a fascinating artist, a photographer who is committed to the rights of women in her home country Afghanistan. Her work is mentioned in the festival catalogue called Hinter dem Schleier. On August 15, 2021, the Taliban returned to Kabul, after they had been repressed by force 20 years earlier. Since then, the extremists have once again ruled over Afghanistan with an iron fist. In all parts of society, Islamic law is again the law. The first victims are the women, who now have to hide behind the castle and whose freedoms are trampled. Today's 28 -year -old Fatima Hossaini had to leave her country and found refuge in France. She could only save her precious photographs, which are a passionate homage to the unique beauty of Afghan women. These rarely have the opportunity to express themselves freely, meet obstacles in everyday life, in which the whole burden of cultural heritage comes to light and face heavy challenges. In times when, as the writer Yasmina Kadara says, people have gone crazy, turning away from the light and the darkness, the fate of these women must not be forgotten. Yes, and that is exactly what Fatima wants to achieve with her pictures, that the fate of women will not be forgotten. She shows the beauty, she shows the strength of these women who are now facing this great challenge again. And her own story is just as fascinating. She tells about the dramatic hours of her escape from Kabul after the Taliban had re -entered there. And it was a really moving conversation and we were all impressed by the power, by the radiance of this photographer and we hope that this will also come across in this interview. Unfortunately, the exhibition in Baden is no longer to be seen, but I link Fatima's website and her Instagram profile. There are a lot of pictures that you can look at to get an impression of their work. So, now without further ado, let's get right into the interview with Fatima Hosseini. Have fun! Hi, we are here in Großer Runde and we have an interesting interviewee, Fatima Hosseini. And we are in Großer Runde, Pia Parolin is here, Kai Beermann, Ulrike, Thomas B. Jones behind the scenes and me, Thomas. Okay, now in English. So hi, we are here in a big group with an interesting guest, Fatima Hosseini, an Afghanian photographer, we're together with Pia Paulin, Kai Berman, Ulrike Schumann, Thomas B. Jones and myself. So hello, welcome to the show. Hello, thank you so much for having me. Yesterday we went through the total exhibition here and we also saw your images, which for us we went the day before and we resonated very much with your images. So they are really strong images. Could you tell us about the series you were showing here? Yes, sure. Actually, the photos that you see here in Baden, it's a series that I captured since 2018 in Afghanistan. And the Beauty Amid War, that is the title, is a project that it's from bottom of my heart as an I am also an Afghan woman who was born in Iran, far from home but I decided to go back to Afghanistan in 2018 and before that like I mean since 2015 I was between Tehran and Kabul. But this is a project that just break this cliche of dark images of women of Afghanistan like these burqa restrictions, a husband cut the nose of a wife or like whatever you see in the cover of many magazines and in during this past I can say four decades whatever have been shown from women from Afghanistan is all about these dark images but whatever I discovered not just as an Afghan woman but as a woman who just were far also from that country, this light, this hope, and this resistance, and this resilience. And this hidden kind of femininity that still exist inside the country, I mean, during the republic. So it's very, very, very emotional project for me as well because I left Afghanistan and my everything behind once Taliban took over, and it's kind of an unfinished project that you see here because I even didn't find the time to finish my project and all these women also left Afghanistan. So I think it's a project that you say it's unfinished but you're not able to continue it now with Afghan women? Of course not? Of course I did you know. The thing is that the last five photos that I wanted to shoot and I remember the last shoot I had was on 8th of August and then I just organized another photo shoot on 16th of August that I didn't know on 15th of August. It's like everything could change. And when I left Afghanistan to France, the thing is that before publishing my book, I decided to finish the project with the last five photos of the same story from women of Afghanistan, but now not inside the country, but in exile. So I finished it with five women actress, musician and dancer inside Paris. And, but I mean, if you see even the photos, it doesn't have the same color, the same spirit and the same story. But I saw that resistance, the resilience, that hope that I'm talking through my photo project. In exile and far from Afghanistan but yeah I mean I finished it but it's not the same not at all. Yeah I can imagine and and was it difficult to find the the women in Afghanistan when you when you did the shoot or did you did you had to fight for for the images or was it easy to find? Yeah you can say well I mean the thing is that when you talk about the conflict zone like Afghanistan it is not easy to just. Choose a subject or choose as an issue that the men of that country have problem with, you know. I mean, as you see today from Taliban, I mean, I cannot say we have the same during Republic, but the thing is that we had still like some restrictions and it was not easy for me to go through the life of typical Afghan women and to capture them. So that's why I went through the life of women musicians, women artists, women activists, women actress, me filmmakers because I knew that maybe as they were familiar with the camera and all these things they they gave me the permission to even publish their photos but despite all everything that I had all these challenges again I mean I remember I got I used to get a call from a brother from a husband and some crazy messages that's how we dare you to share these pictures or even some extremists I I can say, in a patriarchal society, they even couldn't see that you cover a woman with burka and cigarette, or in the middle of a street with electric guitar. So, even if it's in the Western look, very crazy, cliche photos, but I really fight and I really struggle and I suffered even for those little. Freedom signs in my photos. I mean, I can say to you that I remember in one of these shoots that you see the woman with the taxi, It was a huge traffic behind me and everybody were just like going around and to just understand What a woman with a camera is doing there and why you're shooting photo shooting a woman inside the car So even the the process of the shoot took kind of four hours for me to control the situation to just say these people like guys, I'm just taking photos, leave me alone for one moment. But I mean, yeah, in that society, even before Taliban, it was not easy to face kind of things. In such a difficult environment to work as an artist, how do you master the courage to produce your work? And did you have a circle of friends, of other artists that kind of nurtured you also and that comforted you or that you knew that there are some people that share a common vision and an idea of artistic freedom that made it easier for you also to go on with your work? Even kind of the motivation, right? The thing is that the concept of home and Afghanistan was quite different for me. As I was born in Iran and I lived there, but unfortunately I could never be recognized as an Iranian because it's not by birth and you have to... You have Iranian family and parents by blood that you become an Iranian. So I and I was the third generation that grew up in Iran and was born there. But the thing is that this identity crisis that I always had in my life, a very completely Iranized person but with Afghan papers. So it hurts me a lot. And this was the really real reason that I was always looking in my life that what does it mean to have an Afghan passport? And I don't know even where is Afghanistan. So that's why, because of this identity crisis, I went back to discover home. So the thing is that, even the life of women that I went through, it was quite different for me when I compare it with a woman who was born in Afghanistan, who grew up there. And I really was very strong in my concept in kind of the way that I was so young, and I remember I had also so many challenges with my family to leave the comfort zone and to put my life at risk and also all those women in my photos at risk and to go back to this kind of like a conflict zone. I mean, I just don't want to say that much dark. Kabul was quite different, you know, during the last years of Republic. We had this beautiful colors, beautiful life that were going on and people were enjoying the little things and they were trying to make hope, you know, to grow in every sectors. But of course we had problems regarding the security. I mean I never forget that attacks to my students at Kabul University or many other things. But still I was trying to keep my motivation even through a woman who is working in a bakery and making bread or women in the mountains of Bamiyan, or talking to these women how to escape a mullah father to enjoy cinema and to just going to watch a movie. When I saw that much suffering, so really in my case it was nothing because I had my life in Tehran, I grew up there, but Kabul was another journey for me. So yeah, I mean, I just try to motivate myself to go through the simple things that I could see people in Kabul were enjoying that. I would like to know from you, I mean you already spoke about being kind of uprooted or something with this Iran -Afghanistan divergence in a way, but I wonder what does it make to you to live really far from your culture in France, in Europe? Did it affect your point of view about things? Did Did it reinforce you? Did it make you question things? Of course it did and it's doing. Because imagine I was born in Iran, of course, we had freedom but not that much. And Afghanistan, it was completely another concept. And now I moved, I mean, I didn't want to migrate, but exactly like the stories of my grandparents. I have been forced to leave home for the third time, you know, I mean my grandparents, my parents and that's me. And then I remember even this shock of life that in 15 of August Taliban took over Kabul and on 16 and 17 it was the two last day I was at home and on 18 I left to the military side of the airport and on 19th of August. French evacuated me from Kabul to Abu Dhabi and then to Paris and even it took one week for me to accept that, okay, what happened, and why I'm here, you know, because in me, whatever is in my mind, in my memories, it's the beautiful Kabul that I lived. I have no idea of the Taliban, like how was it even. But regarding my artistic approach, of course it did because even if you see the last five photos I showed and I captured I mean it's so sad to say that but I didn't find the colors in Paris you know and when you compare it with Kabul of course it's one of the most beautiful cities in the world but for me it's exile you know for me it's all these streets were there where with the memories of the fighting with the two months healing just crying for a sad home, you know, and just, yeah, just exile, I can say, like, despite I got many support from French artists, French institutions and. Not saving my life, but also saving my voice as an artist because when you see people leave their countries and in exile, not many of them could keep their, profession that they used to have in their countries. So for me, it was very, very sad because I lost the source. I'm completely disconnected with Afghanistan, even with the Afghan society I had in Kabul, because all these women left to different countries, not in France, and very far. So I mean in my artistic approach in this case of course emotionally but even like the women who I meet I give you an example I mean I remember when I was in Jalalabad and I wanted to just capture a picture of a schoolgirl in one of these mountains and I went through three person to get the permission to take this the woman's photo and I just published it in one magazine and among that also like I got some calls that you told us like you don't publish the full face and I was like but you you let me to take the picture so it's fine but and then in Paris I have some crazy friends and because of a practice one of them called me like Fatima what do you think if it if you take some naked pictures of me in this beautiful stairs. So, and you can publish it everywhere you want and please publish it like whenever you want and she was like forcing me publish it. I was like, you know, it's a big paradox in my life that, or even like when I when I live in Paris when I see that how women are in the key positions like a head of the residence that I am is a woman, the mayor of Paris is a woman, the director of so many of these museums is women and even in all around Europe when I see that how women living their life and I cannot ignore it that they fight for it that they are here today but the thing is that this equality that still of course is in the process of fighting for more more rights but when I compare it in to Afghanistan so it's it's a big big big distance and gap between in between and And sometimes it's really, I feel lost in between, that who I am, you know, getting back to background and living at the moment. So it's, I can say this is full of paradox in my life. And you told us yesterday, you waited till all the women left Afghanistan before you published the pictures. But your family is still in Iran and are they in danger about your work or is it safe for your family? I mean for my family, I don't have that much famous family, like they are safe in Iran and they never went back to Afghanistan done after my grandparents left. So they're completely disconnected. But the thing is that I was the craziest part of the family that decided to go back. Yeah, and I hope there's no danger for them. And there was not the option when you had to leave Kabul to go back to Iran. Of course, nowadays it's not an option at all, but back then it could have been, right? Actually, to be honest with you, I wanted to go back to home, you know, I mean, like to my family. And the thing is that imagine in that chaos and the crisis that happened, And I was that much shocked that I didn't know even what I'm doing, and I just left with a backpack, with my camera, with my laptop, and just some hard externals, and my tow pack had it, that is from my family's origin. And even I don't know why I took it, you know? So it was very crazy shock. Actually, this evacuation also was a big mess, and I think the hardest part of my trauma is back to what happened in the airport. Because I remember I was in the list of five, six countries like Germany, UK, Italy, France, US, because in that time I had exhibition in September in New York City and I also had the chance to go to US as well. But I also had Iran residency in my passport and I had India and Turkey visa. So I mean, there were more options for me to leave to wherever I want, you know. And once I arrived at the military site after passing the six checkpoints of Taliban. Imagine, and it was my first experience to seeing Taliban as a real person inside my beloved city, Kabul, you know. So when I went to the airport, so the thing is that we had we were six friends and we all stayed at the US line and because it was by the visa or everything so I just told them like I just need a transit and right after that I will try to manage it my father will manage it that I go back to Tehran and I said like yeah but choose the line and then they all stop in third country like Abu Dhabi, Doha or Islamabad and Albania and then after that maybe you can take out and leave it so and I really don't remember that what I was doing I just stay at the US line. And in the middle of that, I just saw the American troops that it was very, very shameful and very heartbreaking, that how you can do that with the people who lost their countries, and just put this gas and just fire into their face and like something like that. And right in that time, I told my friend that guys, I don't want to go to US if you want because in that time, I really felt betrayed from American and how they left Afghanistan to the hands of Taliban or whatever. So I didn't want to make it more political, but the thing is that I didn't want to go to US in that time and it made me so much far even from family. So I remember when I was there, I asked one of these troops to leave me to leave the line and he just said some very crazy words to me and just pushed me back. And from the far I was shouting to any troops to get me out of this American line. And I remember the Germany just passed and I was like, Germany! And they didn't understand, you know. And then UK and I saw the flags, you know, I was like, UK! And they didn't understand. And then Italian. And I was so crazy hopelessness, you know, and I was like, guys, I don't know what should I do. I don't want to go to this country. And like, the thing is that even they don't let us to leave, you know. And the thing is that it was the last evacuations. It was 8 p .m. And I had to stay till the tomorrow 5 a .m. And Taliban was just 10 minutes over there, you know? And you couldn't trust anything. And I was confused that what should I do now? So the thing is that it was the last hope. And I just saw the last three French troops that they're passing. And I just shouted with all my energy that, France, our tears, you know? And they came back. And I said, who was the artist? I was like, yeah, it's me. And they just took me away. And yeah, it was so heartbreaking. And they took me to the French shelter. And yeah, I left to Paris. What a story. And we were seven friends and now we end up in different countries. I have a question that maybe sounds weird to you, but did you ever wear a burqa? Because I think this makes something to you. Did you ever experience this? Were you forced to it or did you do it just to experience it? Yes, of course. I mean, I remember for my two assignments in Jalalabad in Kandahar, because it was a road trip, I wore burqa. And does it make something to you to wear? I mean, I think I saved myself because, first of all, I was a woman, second, and I was going to the extremist part of these provinces. And the other thing is that, as you know, this is a big conflict in Afghanistan. I was a Hazara, you know, and I was going to a Pashtun area, so it could also make some problems. Even I remember I used to speak English, that they think that I'm a foreigner, international photographer, not a Hazara Afghan coming from Iran, you know. So yeah, I mean, just saving myself. And how have you continued with your artistic career now living in France and looking into the future? How do you see yourself? Where are you going to shift your focus to and what kind of projects would you like to work on in the future? I mean, it's not easy because when you, as I told you, like this emotional connection for Afghanistan that I had and I can call it home and it was not just a for a project that I went back to there and it was a trauma that my grandparents exiled, my parents exiled and I didn't want to experience it for the third time, but it happened. So, the thing is that now, of course, so many times it happens that I really get lost and I don't know what I'm doing and why I am in France, where are my parents, like many of these panic things that happen, that it's normal when you live a conflict zone to deal with life, but the other thing is that I think I cannot get out of it, but still I'm covering women. And the other project that I already started is the women in the Silk Road in the MENA region that will start from Central Asia and end up to North Africa. So now I'm in the start of my project in Silk Road to covering women with the same challenges but very far from Afghanistan and just going through the heritage that there's always a hand of women behind that. And I imagine, well, even though lots of your friends have left Afghanistan as well, you still have some contacts to people living in Afghanistan, in Kabul, or? Yeah, I have actually my students, and it's so sad because my girls students that I used to teach at Kabul University, they got stuck in Kabul, and still some of them are suffering there. And like I had also like some friends that they couldn't leave the country and, so for men I mean of course for everybody with this economic crisis it's hell but for women more than ever because there's no life for women right now imagine they close the beauty salons even there's no school there's no work even in some provinces they stop women to go to park and to get out of home when they have no work to do. So, yeah, I mean, for women, it's become more tough, the life under Taliban regime. And, well, it's not likely that there's gonna be a change in the near future. How do you project, or what kind of future do you see for Afghanistan, like, in the next couple years looking? I mean to be honest in the first year I was so hopeful you know I was even expecting that the international community at least do something or for the women or something. I mean this evacuation was a part of it but even sometimes I not agree with that as well because Afghanistan lost a huge human resource that could make a change and even now all left Afghanistan you how we can expect that something new will happen. And in another case, when after 20 years of investment, US investment and international community, now we are in the stage that get back to those terrorist Taliban and how they ban the life for women. So I can say that there's no hope, I think. And yeah, and the Taliban now in Afghanistan are not the Taliban of 1996. They are more smart, they know the power of PR, they know what is media, they all have Twitter accounts. They are still trying to negotiate with the world, to looking for recognition. So I mean, they came, unfortunately, more powerful than 20 years ago. So it make it hard. And as I told you, like, the new generation who couldn't make anything, they left Afghanistan. So, yeah, I can say in my capacity that I think there's no hope. I have a question to come back to photography. Maybe you spoke about your… Thank you. You spoke about your identity crisis and all this. So how does this translate in your pictures? is how, what means do you use, what kind of technique or whatever approach do you use to translate this into something visual? Yeah, I mean, in different series, I mean, I worked on different works. I mean, the first picture that you see the woman with burka with cigarette, it's it's it wasn't it captured in Tehran, you know, but I remember that I asked one of my friend to bring burka to Tehran and like I mean, this, this paradox is that the location is different, or the woman with burka on bicycle, it's in north of Iran, you know, and the other picture that there is a girl like inside Kabul with the electric guitar, like we had the same story, you know? I mean, or the other woman, I mean, the last shoot that I had with the yellow textile in that, I mean, you see a Pashtun woman with a Hazara woman, you know? I mean, I just tried to bring this discrimination that I always had in my life, not just as an Afghan in Iran, but also as a Hazara in Afghanistan, you know? And also this identity crisis as well, or these different paradoxes and different jumping that into different culture and I can say cultural displacement. Like sometimes in my, the women who I photograph, sometimes in a textile, sometimes in the location, sometimes with a sign. Yeah, but I just tried it. And that's why the last photo of my book is also a self -portrait of me with my topack. That's I could see myself in all these women I photographed. And you showed your pictures in New York and in France. And would you like to tell a little bit about your exhibitions? It's nice, I mean, of course I enjoy to, as much as I can, talk about women of Afghanistan. And not just about my photos, also like to give awareness and at least to keep talking a little about voiceless women inside the country and how is the situation right now and to just like trying to advocate for them. Not in the capacity of an activist, but also as an artist, you know. But the thing is that for me, before fall of Kabul, it had a different taste, you know, because I remember after my exhibition, I used to go back home to Kabul and again to hang out with these women and ready for the other shoot and walking the streets of Kabul with these women. But now it's more heartbreaking for me and I remember the first time when I saw my pictures and legacy. I cried, you know, because these big formats, big, big, big files. And it was so real for me. And it happened right after I lost all those hopes and everything. And all these women left Afghanistan, there is no reality in these pictures, you know. So now it's so hard for me to talk about the beauty, hope, beautiful women, like the colors, the hope that's, let's be honest, that it doesn't exist now. I mean there is no life like the Kabul that I lived right now. So sometimes it makes me more emotional when I compare the situation and it was just two years ago. It's already a documentation of the past in a way, your work now, I mean that's very sad in a way to see it that way, but that's what you created in a way without wanting it. And do you follow up on these women and do you still keep contact with them? You said they are spread all over the world. Yeah, for sure, I'm in contact with many of them because as I told you like once I started this project. It was so challenging and even once I arrived in Europe, I mean, I remember I had some interviews and they published a picture of a woman that her brother arrested by Taliban. So she was just taking all her pictures and I just messaged all my galleries that please take out of the picture of this girl. Like again, thank God, like the Taliban just released her brother and again published a photo, you know, I mean, like many, many crazy challenges but of course regarding their security I have to, it's not security but I mean I had very emotional and very very friendly very sisterhood kind of relation with these women you know I mean it doesn't happen that I just saw a woman in the movie and I just call her and say can I take your photo one day come to the street and that's all no not at all I mean I spent time with these women for months and months and then I tried to capture their photos in a very friendly sisterhood way, not giving them the feeling of being a subject for my photos. I'd like to ask you something about your journey into photography. I read that you actually wanted to become a painter when you were 14 years old. I wanted to be a painter but I didn't want to. My parents wanted me to be an engineer. Yeah and you studied engineering? I studied industrial engineering. Okay and then you turned to photography. What was it about photography that got you hooked? I mean, I always liked the speed, you know, to see the result of my work very fast. That's why I couldn't stay in paintings because it took a lot of time. So, yeah, it's so crazy. But, I mean, it was very, also, I mean, crazy for me to study industrial engineering and then a big challenge that, I mean, in Afghan typical family, they don't understand that you can also be someone through photography. But the thing is that, yeah, I mean, they always thought that you have to be a liar or doctor or an engineer. And there's no other way. What does your family think of you now, or these days? Have they ever? After many years of, I mean, they were always supporting me, really, especially my father. But, yeah, I mean, actually, even this one was because I was their, like, the first daughter. So they wanted to make a bright future for me, but they didn't know that I don't like it. I mean, I suffered a lot during the industrial engineering because I couldn't be an engineer. And then when I shifted to photography, it was so crazy because all my friends and classmates went to study master degrees and they found job. And I was also like a first year of bachelor of photography again, so it was crazy. But today I hope they are proud, maybe. Yes. Yes. Coming back to your parents, so they are living in Iran and Iran has changed a lot during the last year, of course. So what's your opinion? It's not photography, sorry. It's more political. But what are your expectations for Iran? Yeah, my family is there, my two little sisters are there, they are studying. One of them is a musician and she's singing in a society that the voice of women is forbidden. And it's quite crazy, but after all, of course, before of this, I mean, they're struggling and the life of my parents as Afghan refugees there were always complicated you know and I cannot say that they were not affected by all these things but I mean when I compare it with all the things that they had in life and their challenges and I'm sure they face it and they can pass it again but yeah I mean. We have other challenges that it can take them. I mean, it's more deeper and more serious for them than this protest that happened among Iranians, I think. Yeah, imagine like my, it's my first time to say it, in a podcast or any like public place, but the thing is that imagine my parents lived in Iran over four decades. And even our houses, our car is not registered under my father's name because he's not Iranian. And it's also registered by an Iranian and in the court like they just said something that it's for like an Afghan person here you know. And the thing is that my sisters also like they had many many competitions like globally but in the middle of the way they cut their name because they were not Iranian, you know, but they are Iranian because my little sister, she's completely disconnected with Afghanistan, you know, she's Iranian, completely Iranian. She even doesn't have any Afghan friend. And like he does, she doesn't know even how to speak in the Dari, in the accent. But at the end of the day, she has an Afghan passport and they just give her the rights as an Afghan. Even she didn't live her life as an Afghan, She never saw these things that she has to go through. But yeah, I mean, imagine when you have these challenges, so fighting for having hijab or not having hijab can be very less for my parents. So one of the images in the exhibition is your sister. And for me it's one of the most striking portraits because she has blue eyes and blond hair. And it's completely disturbing at the first sight. Exactly. So it's one of your younger sisters? Yes, yes, my second sister. And this is also the answer to your question as well. Because, you know, I mean, Seema, my sister, like, she studied chemistry, Master of Chemistry in Iran, and now, and when she came to Kabul to visit me, and like many times, and she went also to Daikundi, the origin of my parents for the first time, as I imagine, as a Tehran -born woman, and she was also completely Iranized, but the thing is that this is the contrast between my life as well, you know? She's completely Iranized, I mean, my mother, my parents, as they grew up in Iran, they have no problem if she make her hair blonde, you know? And she has a tattoo as well. But in Afghanistan, she wear a very old scarf, you know? I mean, this is also like this contrast between my life as well. I mean, I remember when I went back to Kabul, my aunt that she also grew up in Kabul, she stayed. She was completely very Afghan woman, typical Afghan woman. And she's like, how your father let you to travel and to come and live alone in Kabul, you know? And in another side, I was working with United Nation for helping other Afghan women to learn photography. You know, I was like, so who am I? I am this, with this capacity, or I am that, that I even have to take care of my clothing in front of my aunt, you know? So this paradox that I'm talking to you about, It's also like in my photos that I just wanted to have my sister also in one of the photos because. She faced all these rights that she had in Iran as a Hazara Afghan refugee, but when she came to Kabul, to Daikundi, she was completely a stranger because she's Iranised. She's completely out of this concept, you know. She has blonde hair, tattoo, you know, blue eyes with beautiful makeup. It's quite different. She's not a woman from Daikundi, but they recognize us as Arab women. So this crazy crisis, I can say, or paradoxes exists in our life. Okay, thank you. Between two culture. Yeah, you said that you're teaching photography and I wonder what role do you give to art in general for these women? I mean, would that be something Anything that you would transmit as a message, try to express yourself even if you're locked up at home and try to work on your personality maybe in your small room and, I don't know, is this the kind of thing you pass on also? I think all of us like had many, many other also issues like restrictions, everything. But if I want to compare it with the women inside Afghanistan, especially right now, So it's a completely different journey, you know. And I mean, still I'm in contact with some of my students inside Kabul University and some other women who I know like from Herat University and from other places. And I'm in contact with them sometimes through a workshop and I have some classes for them. But again, it's, let's accept it, it's also so hard because they don't have any access to camera and sometimes there is electricity problem, sometimes internet problem, they cannot get out of home and to take photos and how long you can just limit your works to your just room or whatever, you know. So yeah, it's not easy to face these problems, but I mean I had also this problem in my capacity, but in another world, you know. I mean, from a discrimination in Iran as an Afghan woman, in Afghanistan as a Hazara woman. I mean, like, I had also a piece that I exhibited just six months ago that I just talked about these labels, you know, that I carried in my life since I was born. I mean, I was in Iran, I was born in Iran, but they called me Afghan refugee, you know, but I didn't migrate from any country to your country that I'm a refugee. And even I didn't have the rights of the refugees, you know, because I'm a refugee in France now, but I have some rights at least, but not just one year, one year, one year. And for 20 years, just stamps in my passport that you can stay one year more to Iran, you can stay one more year in Iran, you know. And then right after or a displaced something they called us in Persian and then right after I left Afghanistan they were like yeah like crazy stage diaspora who want to like show us she is Afghan but you are not Afghan enough enough Afghan and also you are Hazara you know you are you cannot speak that much because you are you are minority you know and then right after I left to France and now I'm an artist in exile Afghan refugee Afghan woman who left Afghanistan, Afghan evacuees, you know, like, it's all about their labels. And now I mean, I'm with the status that I also like exhibited my status in my exhibition as well. That's officially, I don't belong to anywhere, you know, I have no Afghan passport anymore. I have no French passport, of course. And I'm in between and I could never have Iranian passport. So what is my status? You know. So I don't want to limit my identity into these things and for me being a woman is everything that I could say first of all and at the end. But yeah I mean but I lived my life through labels and with many labels and still many labels. I think that a strength of your photos is also that we have labels in our heads, we have stereotypes, and if we think about a woman in Afghanistan, I have a certain image because I saw images before, and I think you're very good at breaking up this labeling, this stereotype, because your photos, like the woman with the cigarette, it just doesn't make sense in my head, you know, this is not happening in my head, so you show me, yes it is, or it was happening, and we hope that it will happen soon again. It's all the imaginations, yeah. And also like the reality that I told you, these paradoxes, you know. I mean, yeah, I mean, I have my freedom now in Paris, in France, I mean, before that in Kabul, I said like I could live my life. But when I compare it with the, because I came from an Afghan background, even in my mother's mindset, or my aunts or the Afghan society, so maybe I mean for them it quite have another face you know even like I, remember some of these people came like two men came to my exhibition in Paris and they were like okay where is your scarf you just arrived two weeks ago I was like yes but in Kabul I saw I didn't have a job in Kabul University you know so I mean there are still some people who just want to remind you and you put you in their own boxes that they made. So I mean, it's full of paradoxes. You don't know who I am, guys. What should I do? Did you ever take photos of men? Not yet. Might be interesting. For my new project, yes. I mean, there is a man in the photo with me that I'm behind a bicycle that is also like a sign of Kabul in Paris, Paris streets. But yeah, I mean, of course I captured my father and my friends, but not so seriously. Yes, no man. Well, thank you very much, Klaasima, it's been fascinating talking to you about your projects and the situation of women in Afghanistan, which is now, yeah, I don't know how to end this but you said it yourself that for the next couple of years you don't see that much hope that something's going to change, but hopefully through work like yours and putting attention to that, that the situation is eventually going to improve. Of course, I hope the world never at least forget the women inside Afghanistan. I'm sure you're contributing a lot to that. That's your job now, not to forget the women in Afghanistan. Yeah, exactly. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Music.