Abenteuer Reportagefotografie – Podcast über visuelles Storytelling

Kai Behrmann: Visueller Storyteller und Fotograf

Since 11/2016 426 Episoden

Pascal Maitre: "Photography is my tool, but I really believe in journalism"

21.04.2024 60 min

Zusammenfassung & Show Notes

Pascal Maitre zählt zu den renommiertesten Fotojournalisten der Welt. Seine mitreißenden Reportagen sind in den wichtigsten internationalen Magazinen erschienen, darunter Stern, GEO und National Geographic.

Seine Reise in die Welt des Fotojournalismus begann nach seinem Psychologiestudium und war der Beginn einer bemerkenswerten Karriere, die Jahrzehnte und Kontinente umspannte. Sein besonderes Interesse gilt Afrika und Afghanistan. In diesem Interview spricht Pascal Maitre über seine abenteuerliche Karriere als Bildermacher rund um den Globus und verrät, was er durch den Sucher seiner Kamera über das Leben gelernt hat.

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Mit neuem Konzept ist der GATE7-Podcast nun der Podcast der interaktiven Lernplattform “Abenteuer Reportagefotografie”. Hier dreht sich alles um visuelles Storytelling in der Street- und Reportagefotografie.

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Transkript

I grew up in a small small town and I was from a long time I was interested about photography and like many people who live in a very remote place I want. Music. Escape about this place. I shoot what I feel I have not be thinking I will do I shoot what I feel and what I saw, what I see. Geo, Stern, National Geographic, the list is long. He has focused on topics in Africa in his work. This is the continent he has researched the most photographically. But he also spent many years in Afghanistan and other parts of the world. And from this experience he reports in this interview a rich photojournalist life. hat er geführt und führt es immer noch. Er ist immer noch aktiv natürlich. Und ja, in diesem Interview steckt, glaube ich, eine ganze Menge viel Wissen, viele Tipps, die wir auch auf unsere eigene Fotografie übertragen können. Wir müssen nicht weit reisen. Spannende Geschichten finden sich auch vor der eigenen Haustür und lassen sich mit den Methoden, mit den Techniken der Profis, was das visuelle Storytelling angeht, hervorragend umsetzen. I wish you a lot of fun with this interview that I conducted together with Pia Parodin last year as part of the Media Days in Baden at the Photo Festival Lagasili Baden-Foto. And this is the last interview that's left. We have conducted a lot of interviews last year. And yes, we will hopefully do the same thing again this year. The next edition of Europe's largest photo festival opens on June 15th. Its doors or then the exhibition is in Baden in the city and in the beautiful Chur Park to be seen. And together with Thomas Jones and Pia Parolin, I hope to be able to be with them again in August on the media days. Yes, before we get started with the interview, a very short note. I had indicated in the intro of the last episode that the workshop in Helsinki will probably take place. Now I can report full time. We have reached the minimum number of participants, are even over there. darüber. Es gibt jetzt noch zwei freie Plätze, also wenn du Lust hast in Helsinki Street und Reportagefotografie mit mir und den anderen Teilnehmenden zu erleben, dann melde dich gerne an. Den Link zur Buchung, den findest du in den Shownotes in deiner Podcast App, mit der du das hier hörst. Da findest du dann auch noch weitere Informationen zum Ablauf und was dich alles erwartet. Falls du darüber hinaus noch Fragen hast, kannst du dich natürlich auch jederzeit per Mail an mich wenden an info at geld7.de, 7 ausgeschrieben, nicht als Zahl. Ja, wäre klasse, wenn wir den Workshop voll bekommen. Sechs Plätze gibt es insgesamt. Es wird eine kleine Gruppe sein, was intensives Arbeiten ermöglicht. Ich werde viel Zeit haben, auf die individuellen Bedürfnisse eines jeden einzugehen. Und ja, darüber hinaus werden wir sicherlich auch eine ganze Menge Spaß haben. So, now directly into the interview with Pascal Maître. Have fun! Well, thank you very much, Mr. Maitre, for sitting down with us for this interview. Thank you also, Pia. It's been great working together here as a team with this podcast. So, yeah, let's start. Let's start. Thank you, Kai. Thank you for inviting me here. It's a pleasure. Mr. Maitre, we met three years ago. You were here also in Baden, and that time we didn't manage this interview. Okay. I had the opportunity to talk with a friend of yours, also a French photographer, Eric Vallée. Yeah, I know Eric, of course. Yes, you know him. And he said, when I addressed him as a photographer, he said that, actually, I'm not a photographer. He said that he's more an adventurer that carries a camera. Okay. Can you relate to that, or how would you describe yourself? Myself, I am a storyteller. I am a photojournalist. Because, of course, in photojournalism, you have two names, photo and journalist. And myself, I believe about journalism. Photography is my tool, but I really believe about journalism. Yeah. Yeah, I work mostly for the press. And I feel like I'm really a reporter. A reporter. Photojournalist is not such a usual, it's a quite unusual profession to take up. It's not something that, yeah, whatever, it has to come out of yourself, I think, as a passion. You feel the urge to go out there and tell stories. To understand that, let's go back a little bit back to your childhood. How was it? How was it when you grew up in France? And I think there was one very important incident when you got a camera as a gift from your aunt and uncle. Yeah, sure. Okay, me, I come from a place called in France Le Berry. It's quite a very remote place. And I grew up in a small, small town. And I was, from a long time, I was interested about photography. And like many people who live in a very remote place, I want to escape about this place. Of course, you don't feel you will stay all your life there. And, but photography was always something where it was interesting. And when I was a student, I made a study of psychology, but I didn't do it until the term. I was also, I don't know in English, for on money during my study, I will take care about young people in a college. And like this, I won money. And with this money, I make some trip. I went in India for three months when I have 18 and I take picture. And when I come back I show my picture just a small in the school just a small conference and I did this two three times and at the one day I did this for Rotary Club and there were ladies she come to me and she say listen I am a ladies who take care about gypsies I have an association for protect for for Defend the Gypsies. And I would love you to come to take pictures because it will help us and it will be a good documentary for the future. She told me, I cannot pay you, but I will buy you some print and I will pay you the expensive. And at this time, I decided to stop university. And during one year, I did that. But I work, I follow the gypsies and so on and so on. And after, in France, at this time, we have to do one year military service. And by hazard, I have the chance. On my small town, a guy come fishing always with my grandfather. And he was a photographer of Ministry of Defense, of Minnesota. And when I have to do the army, he helped me to do my service army in the military camp. Service in a photographic military. And after, I stay in Paris. And I find a job in a small, not small, weekly magazine. It's called Jeanne Afrique. It's a magazine specialized about Africa. And for me, it was very good school because I know nothing about media world. And what was very good, I start to be inside a redaction and like this I learn how it's work and they give me a double page for I can bring picture for all from other photographer I can bring a story and of course I bring some story and like I was young I love a beautiful picture beautiful light and so and each week I have to defend my story for my personal to be published and they say oh beautiful picture and what why we will publish why we will publish and other story ah it's nice but it's too late and slowly i learned my uh journalist side who will let me after to defend some story i believe it and also this magazine sent me in africa and sent me in africa with african journalists because mostly of the journalists from this magazine were from africa and for me it was also good school because i go directly with african guy and many time we go at their family And like this, I don't have the Western filter to go in Africa. I was directly with Africans. And it was something very helpful. And these two, three first years was really my school in the media world. Mm-hmm. I have a question related to your psychology studies because you said that you grew up in a small place in France and you wanted to escape from that. So to my mind, psychology is not the real key to go out of a place. No. That's just impulsive. My first idea, I would like to be a psychologist for the worker. It was my idea. day and but i don't know i will become a photographer but i was only interesting about photography it was only the thing who interested me well i think if you study psychology it sure shows your interest in people yeah and your interest in looking into people and i think through photography you also look into people now yeah yeah and you know when you are a reporter you just do human relation. Our work is only human relation. And you have to have a human relation for everything, for get the job, for defend the story, on the field, to convince the people you can do the picture, to get the authorization. Everything is just human relation. I'm sure it influences a lot also the way that you take pictures Because if I think of your pictures, I have some pictures that come to my mind from Stern or from Geo, with which I grew up. And I see faces of people. I see eyes. That's all about psychology. I mean, I'm sure that this interest that you have had in psychology also influences your way of dealing with this. It can be. But it's not very clear on me. It can be. I am sure maybe it helped, but it was not a method. Maybe in the background it helped me. I don't know this. I never really be sure about it. But you said that it's always dealing with people, your job. And you mentioned this friend in Africa that opened doors for you. I don't know if it was him, but I read that there was a very special person for you. Ayo Sanura? Ayo Sanura was my fixer. Yes. I work a lot in, you know, in our job we have something we have to never forget, the photographer or he's the same thing for the journalist. The world and the people are our partner. Without them we can do nothing. And, Of course, the fixer are really very important people because sometimes they can take care about your security, they can take care about your contact, they can open the doors, they can help you to understand what you are doing. And we never talk too much about this, but when you do a story, you have to spend a lot of time to get access, to prepare to understand how to find the key yeah because you have like a problem and you have to find a solution and this take a lot of time because if you have a good story good idea but you cannot make it is a very bad idea because you will lost at the end and all this preparation the knowledge you read documentation about the story and many many many things is make you, understand your story, how you will deal, and if you have any problem, how you can move around the problem. And this part of preparation is very important. After, when you get the access, shooting is a pleasure, it's not difficult. But get access is more difficult. Yeah. Yes, and I'm sure that before Before going to a certain place, we all have ideas in our heads about this place. And so the research is even more important in order that you don't have cliches that you just follow. And how do you do this? How do you separate in your mind the cliche from what you really want to research or show? I have a global idea. I have an idea what I would like to say on my story, what I would like to say. I have a global idea. And I will try to get some picture who will be key picture who can make understand my story. But I am not the total truth. So life is more complex. But first, when you, okay, if you have an idea, you go to a magazine to sell the idea, to convince. And you have to know your story. and you have to know how to make it and what you will deliver and why you will do it. And all this preparation is important but it's not science. It gives you a global and after you will see what is the reality. Sometimes it's not opposite but it can be very far. But you don't have to be totally close about your idea. But it's important to know, especially when you work on some difficult place, to understand what is going on. It's good for you, for your security. You have to understand. And of course, you cannot decide what will happen. But you have to be open to the surprises. Oh, of course. And your magazine has to be open to the surprises. Yeah, this is more difficult. This is more difficult because slowly, before it was more comfortable because the magazines have more money, more circulation, and they can take a risk to lose on the story. It's happened. Maybe they lost 30% of the story. Now, they don't have too much money and they want to be sure what you will bring back. But you never know. And it's good. because if we know before he's not totally sure yeah yeah how do you decide on what story to work on is it that you mostly work on Commission that or do you propose yeah it's interesting because during many year I will say from 85 to to maybe 2000, 2005, the magazine called. Because especially I did a lot of stories with Gheo, a lot, a lot, a lot. And they have a big redaction, they have many journalists, they find a lot of ideas of stories. And they call you and they give you assignment. And at this time, we were not so many photographers. also. But from, I would say, 2005, it's opposite. Before it would be maybe 80% they will call me, and 20% I would say, I would like to do that. Now it's opposite. I would say it's 80%, I say, I would like to do this story, and 20% they will call me. And I think it's also because the redactions are very small, they don't have enough resources, to get many stories, to get many ideas. And yeah, it has changed a lot. And how a story comes in my mind, it depends. When you travel a lot, it's easy to get ideas. Because you see something, you listen to what the people say, you understand how a problem will come out. And you can make a proposal. Just I finish a work will be exhibited in the visa this year is about charcoal, okay? And when I started to talk about charcoal, everyone was laughing. Charcoal is barbecue. Okay. And I started charcoal in Somalia because when I went, there is a period I went maybe 10 or 15 times in Somalia. More or less every year I went there. And I was surprised. Each time I go there, there were a lot of flory full of charcoal. And I start to think, this country have not too much trees. Is and where is going the charcoal and i start to look and i discover. Charcoal business in somalia is run by al-shabab and they win 25 million dollars by years from charcoal and the charcoal go to emirate go to qatar to go and go to this charcoal go to saudi arabia because you have a very high quality It is acacia trees, very high quality. And I tried to do more about Somalia, business of charcoal, and I cannot make it because it's a place where really it was very well developed. Al-Shabaab controlled everything. I cannot get it, but I'm still thinking. And, of course, when you look about charcoal, when you travel, you see everywhere people sell charcoal. cold. And when you dig the information, this is what I do, people who need charcoal, today on the world, I am sure you don't have any idea how many. 2,500,000 million. Okay. This is a big. And when I discover all this, of course, it's easy to sell a pitch. You say, okay, 2,500,000,000 of people cannot cook today without charcoal. And they don't have other solutions. Of course, all NGOs will tell you there is a gas, there is some, we can replant the tree. All this thing is true, but it's very small. And all this charcoal use, they are in some part of the world, especially in Africa, in some big town also in Asia, where this town will be double of population in the maybe 20 or 30 years. It's mean. It's crazy because how maybe in 10, 15 years it will be 4 billion of people who need charcoal. We cannot cook without. And I tried to work about this. I went in DRC Congo. I went in Benin. I went in Cambodia for this topic. And I always come back. It's a great example how, well, starting from a small observation that you made, you kind of made it much bigger, this project, and has so many layers to it. Yeah, and charcoal is, of course, deforestation because when you make charcoal, if you take, I work in Kinshasa, the capital of Jersey. Kinshasa is 5 million of ton of charcoal by year, not just for Kinshasa. But to make 5 million tons of charcoal, you need to cut 25 million of wood. Because only 20% of the wood will become charcoal. 80% will go on the hair. And you have deforestation, you have pollution, and you have health. Because most of the kids are affected by the charcoal because they stay with their mother during small place where they cook and they are exactly at the eye where they catch the smoke. This is how the story comes. And it's not difficult when you travel. The idea is easy because you see... And I sorry I am sometimes surprised. How a story like this was more or less never really take care because. It's so big people don't realize and this is what I think and especially when I come older maybe this is a role we can have is En français, on dit lanceur d'alerte. It's the starter of an alert, a warning. Warning, yeah. The beginning of a warning. And I think we can do that with our job. Yes, to me, this is a very important subject because I'm a biologist and I have been working in nature conservation for many years and I'm involved with scientists in Madagascar. I'm sure you're more familiar than I am with the problem of charcoal in Madagascar. And from a scientific point of view, this is something that people have been working on for decades, but it's really difficult to bring it out into the public, let's say, into the politics. And as scientists, we are very bad at communicating our scientific data. And I'm sure that photography can play a key role here because these pictures, they speak to everybody, whereas our numbers and graphs, they don't. So... Picture can be a fantastic tool. And charcoal was difficult in terms of picture story because what is important is the number of people. And it's difficult. There is quite many pictures about people selling a bag of charcoal near the road. But to find a big amount of charcoal, you really have to look after. And in Kinshasa, I can find, I was in Benin also, where you have five lorries from 35 tons of charcoal, and you can see the huge number. But this is difficult, and also is more or less the same thing, the process of charcoal. And for make really a story you need to work a lot to find different possibility of picture different for make attractive the story yes and I was wondering how much do you work or cooperate with scientists about the background of your knowledge no just I read it I have not cooperate I just I find the data. Who I can find and don't you think it's maybe interesting to give more weight to the stories that you find to have something like a synergy between science and photography or journalism I don't know because the data exists I don't need to and I always feel scientists they go more slowly oh yes, definitely we need decades and we are really more in In action, immediately action. But I use the data of scientists. I knew, you know, French AFD? In Congo, they make a good report, research, good data. I look at all the data, but I am not directly in contact. Yes, but you're right, it's very slow. When we make our research, it takes a year or two to have the data. then we have to process it, we have to publish them, maybe five years later. But we can use when he's out. We can steal your data. When you discover a story like that, then the next step is to, as you said, to sell it to a newspaper and to make the pitch and to make it compelling so that it is interesting to an audience of the magazine. How does that work? I think a pitch like Charcot is very easy. Just you put the data. 3 people, 2,500,000 people cannot cook every day without charcoal. I have not the data in my mind, but how many hectares are destroyed from the forest for charcoal? What is the pollution problem? You put all the data. And, of course, if the newspapers, they know you, they know you will deliver the work, they will go with you. Charcoal was not too difficult. I did a few stories like this. I did another story where I really like it. It's about how in Africa, 7 million people live without energy and electricity. It was more difficult to convince the magazine because they said, what we will see if it's dark? But finally, we make it. And even we did a book with Lois Lamer about... And this is an interesting story. story i did the story for different magazines piece by piece finally we print a book with, lois and i have the people the boss buy a lot of book and when you go to meet minister in africa with who are concerned about is he offers a book and when you do a work like this from the idea day until the point of you have a, book, a tool who will be help, it's fine, it's cool. I saw you sitting down with Peter Matthias Gede just before we came up here to sit down for this interview. Have you, I imagine you've worked together Oh yeah, long time. We did maybe 50 stories together. What is it like when you go together as a team, a photographer? No, I was not on the field. He was editor-in-chief at this time. He was not a reporter. I never be on the field with him. Never. Well, how would you describe your relationship with him and working with him? What did that look like? First, I started to work with German Geo, with Christian Brostedt. You know Christian Brostedt? She's the wife of Peter Mathias. She was, for me, the best director of photography who I never met. She was very clever. She gave you confidence because this is when you are freelance, this is the most difficult. She gave you confidence. She was very clever. She pushed you on the story. She will defend you. And I did a lot of stories with her. And Peter Mathias, it was a great time because you can, I did a crazy story, I spent a, 12 weeks in Siberia during winter. And they published four magazines, one after one, like a series. We did a lot of books. There was money at this time. And the magazine, we were just talking about this. At this time, the magazine sells 500,030 copies by year. And now there are 100,030. Of course, you don't have the same possibility. For money for produce a story. No, no, it was cool. They have a lot of ideas. At this time, they have a very good, big redaction, and they really have a crazy idea. Me, I used to work a lot in Africa, and suddenly they say, ah, for this story, we can send me to Siberia because it's not my world. It will be interesting to see. Now, nobody will take this risk. They will take maybe a Russian photographer or maybe people who are really specialists. Ah, it was fun. It was interesting, yeah. I have a question related to beauty in your photography. When I think of your photos, I often see beautiful things, beautiful color, beautiful eyes, beautiful people. What do you think is the role of beauty to make a good reportage that people stop and look at it? I will say I am interested in, I will not say maybe beauty. I am interested in color. I love color. I love painting. This really something will make me a lot of emotion. And what I try, I try to use the color for be creative. And and not to be just illustration because you know we have the black and white and it's always a discussion in photography and the color and color is illustration is boring and i try not only me also a photographer does that very well like alex way where many many but i try to use scholar for be creative and to be creative to support my story to use to be one element who can make more strong my story or more attractive. In photography, on the one side, it's a very technical act. You have a camera, a tool that you have to master to know how it works. But then the other thing, which is more difficult to learn, I think, is to develop a photographic vision or a visual language that you work with in your images. How did that develop in your case over the years? How did you find your photographic voice, if there's something like that? It's difficult to say because I have not... I shoot what I feel. I have not been thinking I will do that. I shoot what I feel and what I saw, what I think. It's not something, well, we make a strategy, a method. It's really my feeling. To come back to the technology, before it was very tough and very precise because I used to work until 2008, I worked in analog and I used to work in slide. And slide, it was very precise. It means it takes a long time to learn about this. Now, technology is quite, for us, for my generation, we grew up with analog and all this, I would say, archaic technology. Now it's very easy. Now what I feel is wonderful, you have a camera, who can exactly. Do what you think and what you feel. The technology gives you... It's like... The extension of your body. You think... An extension of your body. An extension. And it's wonderful because you know you can shoot at 10,000 ISO. You can do anything. you saw the camera will make it and this is wonderful, because when we used to shoot in the slide your priority is to have a very perfect exposition because if you have one third or one half mistake you cannot use the slide your spirit was very focused on this first problem and after maybe the focus point and after what you put on your picture what you see now, exposition is automatic more or less it can be mistake but very few and like us we know how to make correction very quickly focus, now is very easy you just have to think about your picture what you want to do what you want to make inside it's fantastic you are free just your eye just your vision And for me, this is a big, big change. Why did you choose slides? Because I made the transition to slides as well, because as a scientist, it made sense. I used the photos in the classroom, and it was a lot cheaper. So my first motivation was it was cheaper. Yeah. All the magazines at this time, they print from slides. Because as you say, it's a lot more difficult because you cannot reframe it. You can maybe change the horizon of a little millimeter, but that's it. That's it. But all the magazines at this time used only slides. I don't know why. Because it's cheaper, maybe? No, no, because this magazine, National Geographic, can give you a thousand films. It was not, I don't think so. I think it would be maybe better for printing, better quality of printing. I can see that. And slowly after, it started to be negative, color negative, and paper print. And it started after. But during my time, it was only slide. Only, only. I think it was more a technology problem for printing. But it's a difficult school. You have to be very accurate. But it's a good school. You have worked on or in over 40 countries on many different regions uh in in the world you've seen so so many many things um and i think in the beginning you also said that uh photography for you was a way to escape uh the the little town that you grew up in what is it that uh you have learned about life through photography? Okay. First, I am very pleased and lucky to do this job. It's fantastic. You meet fantastic people. You learn every day something. This is fantastic. But what I learned deeply... Is the resilience of people, the energy of people. You learn the life is, at the end, is always stronger of the disaster. And these people, especially when you work in difficult situations, give you a good lesson because more of them, they still have a lot of energy, a lot of life. And you know we are really in different world our world mainly people are quite sad and are afraid afraid of anything afraid to lose we have assurance for everything assurance for car for everything even for shoes no i joke but for your phone for everything in africa if you take they have assurance for nothing no health assurance no pension, nothing it means, you are not afraid to lose because you have and it gives the spirit of living at the time and it's full of life it's full of energy you see these people are more even they have a lot of. Humor more and a lot of life and this is what i learned about these people about all this trip the life is, people are the life is very strong and this season make me some not courage but make me some, positive thing. Yeah, it's like you might think or the first thing you see in these pictures of people living in situations that are of poverty and stuff like that, maybe it's a feeling of pity that we feel from our point that we think, okay, they have a very hard life. But as you say, even though the situations are dire, people still have this spirit and this energy of life, which shouldn't be forgotten. Yeah, of fighting. And globally, the people are very gentle. Sometimes, of course, you are in trouble, you can be arrested, put in jail, badly. But globally, the people are very, very, very open, very friendly. And even in the worst situation, people are happy we are here. Because when it's so hard, they need to give the message. They have to say to someone, and we are here. Because many times, especially about photographers, who say photographers are like animals who want to take meat from the died people. It's not like this. And the people are always happy we are here because it's too much for them and they really won't cry. And this is interesting, how the people accept us and how we are people who can deliver the message. I observed that in the last years, with the cell phones that are distributed more and more and even people from poorer countries very often have cell phones now. They let me, for example, take some photos and then in the end they ask me to take a photo where I am on their photo. Does this happen to you? I think this is a wonderful thing because... Sorry, can you say again? So people now, they have accessibility to a camera themselves because they have cell phones. And so does it happen to you that they ask you to take your photo oh yeah of course and I think this is a wonderful way of putting of sharing of sharing exactly of being on the same level yeah yeah sure sure yeah yeah yeah of course it's happened many times yeah yeah yeah, So when you look at the situation of photojournalists today and also the situation in the media, you've talked about the times where there were huge budgets for photojournalists to go out there and work on stories. These days, the conditions are much harder. How do you look at the situation right now and looking into the future? Future, I don't know. but for me what what is really a problem you know of course most of the magazines they don't have more money now and they don't send many people on the field and slowly slowly is a big problem for information because we use some information and from the desk this information go to desk desk and desk and desk. And if the truth at the beginning is a little bit wrong, at the end is really wrong. And if you don't send many reporters, at the end we will have a global problem of lack of information. And this is really a big problem. Really. Really. And I think the problem gets even bigger if you think about artificial intelligence which comes in where people can just make up a story that didn't ever happen what do you think about all this what is your feeling, I hope me I am not afraid about this because I still have the feeling the reality is more strong. And I hope they will have some software who can detect and say who is wrong or not. And it's funny, I was reading a newspaper, French Courrier International, they did a small issue about intelligence artificial. And it was about forest. Okay, there were some researchers who say now it's very good with intelligent artificial we can manage to know exactly where the wood disappears, where we can make some data, some perspective, etc. And it will help to stop the forest, to help to, okay. But when you are people like me, you go on the ground and you see the difference between what the people think use artificial intelligence and what is the reality on the ground. You feel a big gap. And this is again the same problem. If you don't send people on the ground, you can see from above with all your. Artificial intelligence, you will be so far from the reality. And maybe at the end it will be a big problem because you will have a so big distortion between the ground, the reality, and how the people see the situation. And I don't think it will help, but not for everything. This This is why people need to send reporters. The ground is really important. I talked with Lois about this topic as well. And Lois is very, very confident about the importance that photography will also have in the future. He says that the still image will have its relevance even with artificial intelligence and all the things that are coming. I mean, are you also that confident or what you just said? Well, well, it sounds a little bit like that, that it's still. Yeah, but I am just worried. The lack of resource for some people is really a big problem. Because me, I have the chance to have worked with magazine who give me a lot of possibility and time. And you see, when you start to work on a story, if you have a week, you will go on the surface. And you will. Bring what you think from your desk. You stay two weeks, you stay three weeks. And slowly, slowly, when you dig and when you saw how the story is complex, you start to bring new elements. And at the end, it's totally another story. And this is really important to have time. Me, I think, and I hope it will continue. Photography is very important for me for one thing, for history. Because if I look myself, when I look at some pictures from maybe 80 years, I am so interested to see how was the world, what is, how people are living. I can imagine people will see my picture or a picture of my colleague now in 60 years. There will be a lot of things and this is the testimony of our work for. Celeritage we can live for the future generation I will not say about artists about just about how our world is like my work about Africa I can imagine people in 50, 60 years if they have possibility to see it, will be important and this is I think photography for history this is the main main, reason. From what you just said, I guess that if a very young person comes up to you, someone who just finished Lycée, and he asks you, should I go into photojournalism, you would surely encourage him or her. And what would your, let's say, your three best advice be that you would give a young person? Have energy, be curious, and never resign. It's it. Yeah. it's just a problem of energy of course I was so happy to do it they have to, do it, try and they will find it if really they want it, they will find it now of course the magazine have less money there is less assignment but you have now a lot of, what do we call it bourse award a lot of money coming from other parts with not press. You have... Come on. Scholarships. Scholarships, yes. With scholarship or grant. You have a lot now. In my time, there were no at all. Of course, the magazines were more rich. But now you have a lot of grants. And also, the big difference, because always people say, before it was better. Of course, it was better. But it was different. Before, if you want to show your work, you have to pay print, who cost a lot of money. And you have no chance to share your work maybe to New York. Now, in one click, all the world would see your work. And for no money. All these things have changed. It's different. Of... It's difficult always to say, as it always to say before, it's really better, now it's finished. I don't think so. The big difference also now, there were too many photographers. Too many, too many. To be frank, because before, especially with the slide, you need time to learn, and many people stop it. Now you buy a camera, two hours after you can make a picture that can be printed this is a big difference and it brings a lot of photographers, for a market to shrink I think to give it maybe one small positive aspect is that it also helps some kind of democratization like it's not a privilege of our countries in Europe or the United States now Now, other people can take photos as well. But, you know, I went last year, September, to do a workshop in Nigeria. A French governor asked me. And they were wonderful photographers. Ladies, top level. But I say I am disappointed on one thing. You don't show me a story I don't know. Don't copy what the Western magazine published about your country. What please you have access who never any western photographer or journalist brings a story when people have never seen and i would be very happy to see differently but is need a step now is still little bit copy what they saw in a western magazine but also now there were a lot of discussion. White people should not really photograph Africa because they are not African. For me, it's bullshit. We need the view of everyone. Because if you are serious. Look, America, what is the guy before shows the best America is Robert Frank, who is sweet, is not American. And it's very dangerous to just make people. If you are not black, you cannot talk about black because after a while, the community will take power on these people and it will be propaganda. Wakanda. And we need different vision. And now, with technology, you can bring the vision of any different part of the world, photography for many. But they have to find their way. And mostly, if I take Africa, I know quite very well. I have some friends that when I post about I did a lot of work about Mali, Niger, the situation. And when I post on Facebook, book I have friend French photographer say yeah your work is okay but don't forget there is very good Malian photographer very good I say yes but I went maybe seven times in three years in this region on the field I never saw one, Malian or one because they are not too much interesting what they are interesting is to be ready, to put the picture in gallery in Europe, but not too many are ready to show documentary about their country. And this is pity. Is it about interest or is it about self-confidence? Maybe they are interested, but they are not self-confident enough to really show their work or to really dare a different approach? What I say, I have not seen people shooting pictures. It's not to show the work. On the place where I was reporting about the situation. I don't saw one photographer. And it's not a problem of money because they can take a bus. Me, I need to have a car and not a bodyguard, but to make safety around me. They don't need it. Maybe you need to see a lot of pictures and good pictures, as a well-edited series in books or museums before being able to go into depth of your own country. You know, if someone grows up in a country where there are not so many museums or he does not have access to books. Yeah, sure, sure. But my feeling is there are good photographers who are more artistic, but documentaries, there are few. They are very great artists, photographers, African artists, no doubt. But I am surprised there are not so many about documentary. But we need the vision of everyone, I am sure about this. Yeah. You know, take charcoal. Why nobody in Africa is a problem of every death? It's not difficult to do it. Why they have not do it? Because they don't feel it's important. Yeah. But you have, when I was in Lagos and Abuja, there were especially, the girl who are so good in color, so strong, younger. They're very good. Yeah, sometimes you don't question what you see every day. And maybe it would be more interesting to invest money in bringing people from African countries, for example, to Europe and to see their vision of our daily life. I'm sure there are a lot of surprises there. Absolutely. Absolutely. And if I was editor-in-chief in a magazine, I will do that. Yeah, sure. But I don't want to, I don't say that because it's my business, but I don't think it's good to put out people because they are this type of skin, this type of, there is no sense. Because knowledge of Africa is not only a skin problem. We have to be careful about this. It's delicate. No, definitely. No, but it's more about seeing a different country or a different culture with your eyes. It can be someone from Scandinavia who comes here to Baden. Absolutely. This is why we cannot close to say it's impossible. You don't have the right to show this. Everything is open. We need all the different views. view. And this is what is interesting because this is also like here is interesting because you have view from different people from different origin. And this is very me, I am very pleased to see because this gives me some inspiration. It makes me thinking about some country I know very well, but I have a feeling of another way to see the country. Yeah, it's a matter of diversity, no? Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. We need the diversity. We need it completely. Well, it's been fascinating talking with you about all these rich experiences that you bring into this and that you have with photography. So thank you very, very much for sharing. It's a pleasure. It's a huge pleasure. Thank you very much. Merci beaucoup. A bientôt. Merci. Music.