"World Press Photo"-Gewinner Matthew Abbott: Warum Storytelling wichtiger ist als Technik – und wie das „Känguru-Foto“ um die Welt ging
Der australische World Press Photo Gewinner spricht über Recherche, Zugang, das Denken in Serien, den Druck von Deadlines, die Rolle von Editoren – und warum einfache Bilder oft die größte Wirkung haben.
18.01.2026 77 min
Zusammenfassung & Show Notes
In dieser Episode sprechen Pia Parolin und ich mit dem australischen Fotografen Matthew Abbott über Fotojournalismus jenseits von Technik: über Recherche, Zugang und das Erzählen in Serien. Abbott erzählt offen von der Arbeit an den australischen Buschfeuern, vom Druck im Feld – und von dem Moment, in dem das ikonische Känguru-Foto entstand. Ein Gespräch über einfache Bilder mit großer Wirkung, über Editoren als Sparringspartner und darüber, warum Storytelling die eigentliche Herausforderung bleibt.
Das Gespräch mit Matthew Abbott wurde im Sommer 2025 im Rahmen der Medientage des Fotofestivals "La Gacilly – Baden Photo" geführt – gemeinsam mit Pia Parolin.
Abbott war dort mit einer großen Open-Air-Ausstellung vertreten, die sich den australischen Megabränden und ihren Folgen widmet.
Er beschreibt seine Motivation als Fotojournalist wie folgt: Er wolle Bilder machen, „die die Menschen berühren, die sich wie ein Faustschlag in den Bauch anfühlen“. Er erzählt auch, wie nah ihm die Begegnungen mit Menschen gingen, die „alles verloren hatten“ und unter extremen Bedingungen vor den Flammen fliehen mussten.
Der Kontext: Zwischen Juni 2019 und Mai 2020 erlebte Australien eine Buschfeuersaison, die Fachleute als „Black Summer“ bezeichnen. Dabei wurden 24,3 Millionen Hektar verwüstet, mehr als 3.000 Gebäude zerstört und 34 Menschen starben.
Zudem wurden schätzungsweise drei Milliarden Landwirbeltiere getötet – eine der größten Katastrophen der jüngeren australischen Geschichte. Die Größenordnung der Tierverluste wird durch eine Auswertung des WWF gestützt, der von „nahezu drei Milliarden“ betroffenen Tieren (getötet oder vertrieben) spricht.
Abbott hielt dieses Ereignis fotografisch fest und erhielt für sein ikonisches Bild, das ein Känguru zeigt, das an einem brennenden Haus vorbeispringt, einen World Press Photo Award.
Weitere Informationen & Bilder: https://www.abenteuer-reportagefotografie.de/podcast/matthew-abbott
Das Gespräch mit Matthew Abbott wurde im Sommer 2025 im Rahmen der Medientage des Fotofestivals "La Gacilly – Baden Photo" geführt – gemeinsam mit Pia Parolin.
Abbott war dort mit einer großen Open-Air-Ausstellung vertreten, die sich den australischen Megabränden und ihren Folgen widmet.
Er beschreibt seine Motivation als Fotojournalist wie folgt: Er wolle Bilder machen, „die die Menschen berühren, die sich wie ein Faustschlag in den Bauch anfühlen“. Er erzählt auch, wie nah ihm die Begegnungen mit Menschen gingen, die „alles verloren hatten“ und unter extremen Bedingungen vor den Flammen fliehen mussten.
Der Kontext: Zwischen Juni 2019 und Mai 2020 erlebte Australien eine Buschfeuersaison, die Fachleute als „Black Summer“ bezeichnen. Dabei wurden 24,3 Millionen Hektar verwüstet, mehr als 3.000 Gebäude zerstört und 34 Menschen starben.
Zudem wurden schätzungsweise drei Milliarden Landwirbeltiere getötet – eine der größten Katastrophen der jüngeren australischen Geschichte. Die Größenordnung der Tierverluste wird durch eine Auswertung des WWF gestützt, der von „nahezu drei Milliarden“ betroffenen Tieren (getötet oder vertrieben) spricht.
Abbott hielt dieses Ereignis fotografisch fest und erhielt für sein ikonisches Bild, das ein Känguru zeigt, das an einem brennenden Haus vorbeispringt, einen World Press Photo Award.
Weitere Informationen & Bilder: https://www.abenteuer-reportagefotografie.de/podcast/matthew-abbott
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Mit neuem Konzept ist der GATE7-Podcast nun der Podcast der interaktiven Lernplattform “Abenteuer Reportagefotografie”. Hier dreht sich alles um visuelles Storytelling in der Street- und Reportagefotografie.
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Transkript
It really feels like sometimes the job is literally just getting there to stand
in that position in that moment. It's that simple.
Yeah, you press the button. I mean we have cameras now that are so sophisticated.
Autofocus and whatever, all that stuff, you know. I think taking a good photograph
or a visually interesting photograph has become so easy in some ways.
But the challenge that I'm always focusing on is that, yeah,
the storytelling is the hard part.
Well, let's get started, Matt. Thank you very much for taking the time.
No, it's a pleasure. Good to be here.
Yeah.
And welcome, Pia. Nice to have you alongside as well again.
Well, I'm very happy to share this moment here together. Thank you, Matt.
No worries.
We're quite far into the artist walk here in Baden. Quite intense. Lots of exhibitions.
We've seen lots of images. and now maybe here we have some ambient noise.
The birds are singing. A quiet moment here with you, Matt.
It's a beautiful summer's day.
Sitting on a bench and looking at your exhibition, your pictures are here displayed
on large panels in the park in Baden.
Matt, you were just taking a very close look at your images as I observed you
a little bit. What were you looking at there?
Yeah, so, I mean, it's a real thrill to see these pictures printed at this size.
You know, we so often, as, you know, my role as a photojournalist,
we're thinking about smaller formats, you know, whether that's like a newspaper or even online.
These days, you know, so much of our images are consumed on phones.
And so actually, I'm getting off topic here, but that's really had an impact
on the way that people photograph.
People really fill the frame.
It's about making images that are quite tight and close.
And sometimes I've got to try to remember to actually pull back a bit and not
be thinking always trying to fill this frame and make these kind of –
close images and so um just just that's
a long way of saying to see them now in this massive format
here outside it's a totally different experience
to see these images in that way um and
even looking at them now um on the panels i'm
seeing details in the images that i've never even noticed
or recognized before um you know because you
know you know when i'm working on my images i'm using like
a laptop and i'm not really going deep into
look at details i'm just sort of looking at it in a global sense and i like
to make uh changes you know globally and not really um you know go in too too
deep and too tight and yeah so it's it's really nice to see them at this at
the scale yeah in this kind of a beautiful environment as well yeah yeah.
Before we get to the series you're just playing here it's about the the bushfires
um um let's talk a little bit about how you got into photography.
What was it that first got you into photography and fascinated you about picking
up a camera and use it as a tool to tell stories?
Well, I think first off, it was like just an interest in photography more than
the storytelling aspect.
I was fascinated by, yeah, making beautiful pictures and the way that pictures
would come together, like from a composition point of view and colors.
And I was from a very young age, I was into visual arts. I used to paint.
And so it really for me started off as an interest in photography and it sort
of became more and more a focus into storytelling and to the point now where
I would say I'm much more interested in storytelling and the photography is almost like secondary.
So a lot of my work is like very research-based, which is, yeah,
this is very different because this is a news photography, so it's very different to this, you know.
I'm going out to research a story and then I'll make contacts,
try to organize access and then pitch the story to an editor and then,
yeah, so there's a whole process behind the photographs, you know?
It's not just going out and just wandering around to take beautiful or interesting
photographs, I guess. Yeah.
May I ask you, what difference do you see between photojournalism and storytelling?
I mean i think photojournalism is just like my
my interpretation of photojournalism which might not be everyone's
um is i i don't think it's press photography i
don't think it's you know news photography um i i
really think that photojournalism is is storytelling with
with images you know um so i think they're the same for
me um uh yeah so
it's it's about like really understanding the
story you're you're talking about you're you're picturing and
and you know to be able to um make a
meaningful image and and series of images um you
know i think photojournalism is about working in series and multiple images
and how that comes together um yeah to tell like a larger story um yeah that's
what i would say i i mean storytelling i guess is a is the broad term for that
that photojournalism would fit under.
And I think there's other ways of working with the camera and making beautiful
stories that can be a bit more conceptual and more, I guess,
more subtle or different, I guess.
And I also love working in that way when I have the opportunity.
But yeah, when I work for newspapers, it's a very, I feel like there's a very
specific way that where the expectations are of that we make a particular kind
of image and we're working in a particular way. Mm-hmm.
Do you have a formal education in photography or how did you develop your skills as a photographer?
Yeah, so I studied visual arts at university and I found that too conceptual
and I went to a technical college and studied photography and I found that too technical.
Um and so then i um so the
only real sort of solid like education i've had in
photojournalism was actually i studied at the danish school of journalism um
for six months as a as a as a um as a sort of um what do you call it like a
like a yeah like a like a short diploma you know and um because i was i was
hungry hungry to learn and it i didn't have um there was not much in
Australia there was not many options to try to um um yeah
to find this kind of education you know and and we and
there's there's a you know because there's
no real industry there there's no real so there's not much of a tradition I
guess um and a lot of the best for journalists from Australia are like working
overseas you know um not to say there's not great photographers in Australia
as well but um yeah there's just not that sort of the population to sustain
an education in this it's,
I guess a better way to explain it was that my way of getting into photojournalism was very different,
Then most Australians, most Australian photographers are going through,
like, a newspaper as a cadet, and then they learn through working and being
around experienced photographers.
And so, for me, I didn't have any of that kind of guidance.
And so, yeah, I was really hungry to learn, and that's why I traveled to Denmark.
We did an interview, I think, a while ago with Søren Pakta. Is he still?
Yeah, Søren. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Søren's great. He was one of my,
well, Mads was the main teacher for the international students,
but Sauron was the head-to-head teacher there.
Yeah, he's great. We had a great talk.
And what is it that you took away from this more formal education of photojournalism?
You mentioned like there's different paths leading into photojournalism.
You learn it on the job and you took another avenue.
Yeah, so...
Honestly, at the time, I feel like I hadn't matured as much as to the photographer I am today.
And so I was sort of, it sounds contradictory, but I was obsessed with the single image.
And I used to worship photographers like Alex Webb.
And Alex Webb was the main influence for me. And of course, there's others.
And people like Trent Park from Australia. And, you know, these photographers
that are working in single images, you know, and compositionally complex, beautiful colors.
And so I was really fascinated and focusing on that kind of work.
And so looking back, I'm, you know, a little bit embarrassed to say that I think
a lot of the education, what was on offer there kind of went over my head,
you know. I wasn't ready for it at the time.
It really came so slowly to me. Like, you know, and so after that education,
I went out and made a, you know, spent years photographing on personal projects around Australia.
But I was still really working in single images.
I hadn't really thought about storytelling in the way that I do now.
And that came much later, primarily because probably the biggest influence on
me has been my wife. And she's a journalist.
Actually, she works for Der Spiegel. So you'd be familiar with Der Spiegel in Germany.
So, you know, just being around her and talking about stories,
it sort of opened my eyes up to how...
To to think about storytelling and and using images to
you know in in that sense um so yeah
particularly you know um you know we
can get into that a little bit later but like a big part of what i do in australia is
that we are so remote we're so far away from the
rest of the world and we don't have these
big stories you know like we don't have this political turmoil um
we don't have so so it's a
quiet news location all right so to survive
there i've had to um i've really
had to like figure out like how to
pitch stories from from this place that are going
to be um of interest to like international media because these
are the companies that have the funds to to pay for stories
now um you know australian media is never going to
pay for a freelance to go out you know four or
five days out and and photograph it's um it's
like the new york times it's national geographic these are you know kind of
leading um you know stern magazine or something like this
um um so so i
had to learn how to tell stories
with cameras and figure out like and figure out what these editors were interested
in you know what they um what they wanted from australia uh yeah so that was
a slow and painful journey but um i feel like now i'm at a point where I can
do that quite well and I kind of know,
oh, this is a story that is going to work.
How would you describe the way of telling a story with several images or this
process of moving away from the single image to tell stories with more images?
Can you describe it a little bit more in detail?
Yeah, that's a good question. Yeah.
I think a lot of it is like instinctual and you're just, for me,
like I don't get too stressed while working about, oh, is this the next image?
I've got to get another, you know, I'm not really thinking about that.
I think some of the best photography or the best mindset to be photographing
stories is to be just open to what comes before you.
And you know yeah if you spend a
few days and you're only seeing you know a small
amount of things and that's just the the way it is you know um we're like we're
documenting what happens we're not trying to like make things happen make things
happen you know um you can only photograph what's in front of you and so when
i'm photographing i try to keep things very simple i don't like to um,
sensationalize images by getting like you know angles from a
from below or you know really deep from above or
wide angle lenses you'll see like all my pictures are typically very straight
um and i and i just like to let the scenes uh dictate yeah to be to just document
things like kind of in a very direct kind of way you know and let them let the scene do the talking.
We're talking about photo essays or reportage uh
one name comes to mind uh w eugene smith
with a country doctor like kind of the the
prototype of how to construct a visual story with different types of photos
details the wider shot and do you think in terms of of these to have a mixture
of different different shots in your reportage and when you're out on the field
is that something that you're going through or is it all instinctual
So honestly that's a really Really good question.
I think if I'm, yeah, so I think a weakness of my photography is that I don't think,
Like in terms of, you know, when you look at like a film or a scene in a film,
you've got like, you look at it, or very often it's this way,
you have like a tight shot, wide shot,
scene setting shots, you have this kind of like formula to work.
And I have honestly never been very good at that.
I think the problem for me is, and so even now when I work on some like multimedia
stories for the New York Times or whatever, I often am missing these like video
shots that they really require to make these kind of things happen.
Because I'm not thinking like that. And I'm not thinking, if I regularly,
I'll, you know, I think if you look at a, I'm intrigued by this idea,
but when you look at like a documentary,
you'll see some really dull and boring shots, right? Of someone's hands or someone's feet walking.
And I would never think to take that. And that's probably still my kind of bias
around this, going back to this idea of the single picture, you know,
this like, it's not photographic, so it doesn't even occur to me to take the photograph.
Um so i think
that i need time to make my stories because
i'm waiting for these like scenes to happen and i'm
definitely learning to make more subtle images um images that
are that are that that that fit into a
story and you don't it's not all about these like we call
them in Australia bangers you know i'm not sure that translates but
it's not not it can't all be like bangers you know like you
got to have these like in quieter in between images i'm getting
better at that but i'm still not perfect at
that you know and um i think yeah for
my stories i i often need this time to make
the the the images in between and yeah i guess you could say a criticism of
my work is i'm often shooting very wide and showing these these these scenes
and i'm not i'm not getting that that range of of different different kind of
views and yeah that would be like a fair criticism but um it's also just sort
not the way that I photograph so yeah.
Well, I guess this impulsive way of taking photos, if I may call it like this,
has certainly something very fresh and interesting about it.
But probably it can work because you are Australian and you take a series in
Australia because you just know a lot of things that are going on,
you know, the background.
And i guess if you
go to a different country you have to be more prepared to
know more about things and to be less um how do you say driven by also ideas
that you have in your mind but are not necessarily what is really going on in
the place and the people so maybe you have a different approach if you travel to other places
um
Yeah so you're saying so you're saying that like
you know because you're you're not from that place you might not have the same uh
depth of experience of how things work and you
know i think that's true but then at the same time um you
know often you'll hear this photographers that go to
a country or go to a place that they're not used to they they're seeing things
so in a fresh way you know they're um they're sort of um uh yeah yeah they're
seeing things that i might walk past every day where i live in manly in australia
and think that's just completely ordinary but for a
visitor they see something and it's like wow that's amazing you know look at that
you know uh and yeah there's pictures in that you know
um i think like a street photographer or someone travel travel photographer
that they they kind of they're kind of working to that energy of that this is
something i haven't seen before and and and they would struggle to photograph
their own backyard i think that's a common thing for people they really struggle
to find what's interesting in their country um,
For many years, I was like working overseas, you know, all kinds of incredibly interesting places.
I've worked in Pakistan. I spent a year in South Sudan covering civil war there.
And this kind of place, you don't know much really about the full picture of what's happening.
But, you know, you're making images that are like still incredible,
you know, visually stimulating and interesting.
And, yeah, and so I'm not sure this is answering your question so much,
but I think working in Australia, sometimes it's like there's – I feel sometimes
it's like it's a frustration because it is a hard place to work.
People are not very responsive to being photographed and there's a – for example,
if you're in the countryside, there's not a lot of people around. It's a big place.
And so you can drive for like a couple of hours and not see anybody.
And so there is this like huge feeling of like massive distances and it's kind
of hard to engage with people in the same way if you go work in,
you know, a very popular area in India, there's scenes happening on every corner,
you know, there's just a visual delight.
Yeah.
Uh, but, but yeah, I think from a, like, from going back to like photojournalism,
if your intention is to, is to show people, um, what's going on and, and, and, and have a,
um, be able to have a voice to say something that's, you know,
cause you're, I want my pictures to mean something.
Then yeah, you need to understand what's going on and, and, and have an understanding
of the story itself and, and, and the, the, the larger picture. Yeah.
You're known to do a lot of research for
your your your work and uh and
i think in another interview you talked about how important is it to to get
access that photography or just pressing the shutter button in the end it's
just you know the the smallest thing thing of all you have to be in the position
to take the picture can you talk a little bit about yeah about these
Topics yeah for sure i think this is um there's a there's a few things that
you that you overlook when you're when you're new to photography you know people
often say like i'm off topic a little bit but they say oh how do you get these
colors and say oh i get these colors because like i'm there,
like waiting for like the afternoon light and i'm in the right position i'm
and i've tried like three days to get this and i didn't get it but on this one
day it happened at the right light and i got it you know that that's what it
takes to get that image in the kind of color and interest um,
Remind me of your question again, please.
The amount of research that goes into your work and how to get access to...
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so sometimes it really does feel like...
I know there's more to it.
I've got that experience of having photographed for so many years.
Of course, I shouldn't take that
for granted. But it really feels like sometimes the job is literally...
Getting there to stand in that position in that
moment that it's that simple and the photography
is like is simple it's just like that's just you know
you just take yeah you press the button i mean we have cameras now that are
so sophisticated uh that autofocus and whatever all that stuff you know um so
you know i i think um taking a good photograph or a visually interesting photograph
has become so easy in some ways.
But the challenge that I'm always focusing on is the storytelling, that's the hard part.
And getting access to whether it's a military base or actually this really good
example is the firework that we're looking at here.
Yes, you have to be there to take the photograph, but it's weeks of preparation.
It's having the right car, the right equipment, the right training,
the experience to know how to be safe in a fire, to be evading the police basically
because they're trying to stop you from getting to these areas.
We'll coordinate with – there's a photographer who is incredibly generous,
and sharing information, Nick Moyer, and he was reading, he has,
he's a sort of genius weather analyzer.
And he was able to say, Matt, like, you've got to be here, get there.
You know, this is where the fire is coming.
And so there's all these little pieces of the puzzle come together in that moment
to make you the one that's there to take the photograph.
And there's also luck as well, a huge part of it. So, yeah, it's a really complicated
mix of things that come together in that moment.
It appears that the essential part of your work is to be able to come back to
a place again and again, so you have more long-term projects and are really committed to them.
So what is your idea about short-term projects?
So, okay, in the sense of like my own way of working in short-term or other
photographers' work, maybe? yeah.
It can be an assignment which pays you for a short-term thing yeah and or also
something that you don't have the possibility to come back to because it's over
or because it's just too difficult to get there so how how do you approach projects
like this what is your take on this
So my personal projects i have several
that i've been working on and undergoing and i've never really
finished any one of them and and that's like a bit
of an indictment of my personality um you know like
i'm a perfectionist i have this feeling of it's not
finished it's not done it's not done and and i wish i
had been able to finish more of these personal projects
and and and sort of let them go you know um and
say you know this is like this is not worth pursuing like move on
to something else and um so i wish i was more like
that you know i'm i'm next week i'm going back to america to
spend five weeks you know on the road uh documenting
a part of the um midwest called
the rust belt and i was previously there um
eight years early with my wife we we traveled for five weeks as well and and
made these portraits and um anyway you know i'm really hoping that that after
this trip i can draw a line under it and then finish this project so this is
done you know um um but to answer your question about um the shorter projects like.
Um you know definitely some photographers some
photojournalists uh feel unsatisfied
with small shorter projects and they go i'm just going
from story to story and it doesn't feel like i'm really
um saying that much or contributing that much um you
know it doesn't feel like i'm being artistically challenged um i
personally don't feel that at the moment like
i still get a thrill out of being involved in these
stories and and i think it i kind of like
the pressure i actually i love i need the pressure actually of
the the time and knowing i've got five
days i gotta make how i'm gonna make something happen in five days you know
like i gotta do this finish the story and i and
it's it's really helpful for my personality to have like the
the pressure and then the editor going we
need to see these photos you get a week to file them and like this these deadlines
work for me um and i
can like yeah i can quickly go yep it's done and i
move on to the next thing you know and not get so obsessed with
it because i think there's like an obsession with
long-term projects you're just like scratching the surface and you're just
you're like oh but if i only spent another you know.
100 rolls of film and three months
around you know in this place i can i can just get some
more and um yeah and
that's like you need that but at the same time it's like when
do you when do you when do you say enough's enough you know
um but yeah but looking back like some of
my favorite things i've done is just like one of
the reasons why i love this job um for journalism is like you get to um you're
thrown into these situations that you would never have any right to be involved.
With you know you get a phone call oh you know not all my stories are my own
pictures there i get calls to go hey matt we need to send you to solomon islands and hang out with um.
You know um yeah this person that person whatever and all you know i destroyed that this year,
on dolphin hunting in in the solomon islands and that
was i didn't even know about it and then i was sent there and i
was next minute i was like yeah hanging out with this village
and we went there for for a week and we
ended up staying for four weeks you know and i got really close to
this village and it was just an incredible life experience um beyond the photo
the photo itself was was a great great opportunity but um yeah the experience
this the experience i think is what keeps drawing me back um to the work and
and and to yeah this this kind of storytelling yeah.
What do you think is it that's uh making it
so hard for you to finish uh personal projects or long-term
projects uh when you're
working on assignment for a newspaper uh much of
the editing is well maybe you propose some
images but then the final edit is done in the newsroom and is that part of it
that on your personal working on personal projects you have to do the editing
and it's much harder to get to a final version or idea of what the story is like
Yeah, I think that's part of it. I think your expectations are so much higher
with personal projects.
And with an art project, with a conceptual project, it's, you know,
the images that you're chasing are so much more fleeting.
You know, if you get sent to do a specific story, you're there.
It's happening. You're seeing it. And that's it.
You're simply, in a way, you are just recording what you see.
But i think um a visual art project you're
trying to i don't know you're trying
you're wishing you're hoping for something amazing to
happen you know something that's like wow what the fuck like i've never
seen that before um you know and and
you might get a little gem like that like once a week
or once a month or whatever um and these gems are
like you know the bangers whatever you know you're like
okay you kind of clicked in them you're like yeah i got i got that and but
if i if i go back out for another four months i might i might get four more pictures
you know whatever a picture a month that that is
just it's so much slower to work
in that way and and you're so much more like um
yeah i think because it's your own project you're you're
just very hard on yourself and often feel like i've got
nothing you know i got no good i i've
i've i've been on i went out once on the on
the road shooting a personal project for four
months shot dozens or even over a
hundred rosal film or whatever and large format as well and
and i didn't i came home felt like
i got nothing and that film sat there for months over a year i think uh with
that i didn't even develop it you know it just felt like i had nothing and then
eventually i developed it and eventually i go back over it and it's kind of
grueling emotionally to like go back over your photos in that way and you're seeing.
There but sure enough there was like okay there's something here there's
something here and you know um it always feels
like whenever i'm working i never feel like i've got enough or
i've got um you know in i never i'm never so
satisfied but i also deliberately don't try not
to look at the back of my camera too much you know because i never want
to feel like oh like i got the shot i'm gonna
go we can pack up now you know i want to be like i need
that fire in my belly to be like oh shit i don't have it yet i gotta
keep going keep going keep going because sometimes you you just by just being
like absolutely relentless and just keep going no matter what um the picture
comes at the end of the day and that's the that's the picture you know um so
you have to have that i think that that obsession yeah.
And at what point in a project do you ask for outside help to to look at your picture or
don't you do that at all
Yeah so um my wife
is is incredible for that um i think
she's naturally got a great eye for photography but it
also helps that she knows me and she knows what i'm trying to um
knows very well so i'm trying knows what i'm trying to get at with the
pictures and so um you know
um yeah so editing
your images down to a smaller number to send
to an editor is hard work so it's easy to send
the editor 100 photographs right you just go oh these
pictures are there's something in these pictures there's 100 photos but the
problem with that is that if you send 100 photographs depends on the editor
but the editor you know could just botch botch it you know then they go they
look at the pictures and they choose like and you're like oh my god why did
they choose that why did they choose this image it's because you sent them the
photo in the first place you You know, why would you send it if you didn't want to use it?
And so it's actually, when I have the time, I really, really,
really try to like strip it back, strip it back and send as little images as
possible to the editor. Mm-hmm.
Um and in some way they appreciate that as
well you know they do because that's the job the job is
not just to send them a unfiltered bunch of photographs um
and you know um yeah so
so but yeah having my my wife there and be able to like bounce ideas off her
and it's like she sees the pictures that shouldn't be there and she's like wait
wait wait wait wait why are these here she's she's brutal like absolutely brutal
you know um but you need that you know um yeah and then and And also,
just to follow on from that, I love working with a photo editor that really gets it.
I had the pleasure of working with some amazing photo editors over the years,
one in particular that it was almost like we were speaking a language together.
I'd send him photographs and I'd really think about what I was sending him.
I really wanted to impress and be like, this is the picture,
this is the story here, in this small pocket of photos.
And then when he would show me his edit before it was published and what I loved
about him as well, he had the confidence to send me that and be like, hey, what do you think?
It was a conversation. It wasn't this thing of like, I just handled the edit now.
This is my job and you're done now, Matt. No, it was a collaboration.
And seeing the way that he would edit those pictures and the sequencing and
the color and pairings with different colors, I learned so much about about
what you said before, about how images work together,
and that was such a really great relationship.
It um the best way to put it is i'd see
his edit and it was like he's speaking to me with my
own photos like a language to me and i
would be learning about editing and about the story and
about my own photos in the way that he sequenced them
and sometimes i would like look at you know
i would i would just instinctively put a photo in there as
like a bit of a i'll just i'll just put this in you know and he he would
grab that instinctual photograph i wouldn't really think much about put it in
the in in in the essay and be like and then it would just be like oh yeah i
get it now i get what i was sort of thinking about it but he made it happen
if that makes sense um so yeah that was that was really cool um to to be part of and to learn from yeah.
And what role does your technical equipment play for your photography
if at all.
Yeah. Um, no, I still, I still definitely care about, about technology and try
to stay, um, like abreast of it and, and try to keep, um, thinking about the
way I tone my photos, you know, um, um.
The way that, um,
You know, having a camera that keeps up, you know, and it's fast and,
um, yeah, I'm sort of like constantly, you know, at the moment I'm using like a mirrorless camera.
It's very fast, but I really, really hate how
they've removed the shutters and it's just like this electronic shutter
and i have no feedback of when i take a
photograph and that's a it's the worst feeling because
when you're shooting like um documentary photographs
where you can't make it happen again this is you have one chance
i you don't there's there's not
a feeling of like oh i've got the shot when you
had a dslr you feel the vibration yeah i got the shot you
know you have the confidence you can you can keep going you don't
now with my mirrorless i'm like oh there's no
feeling of i've got this photograph um so it's like
almost like i've lost that like that love of that moment uh
when i work on my personal projects now i'm going to
be using with a mamiya six you know when you press the
photo you hear the little click and then you go you wind
on the film it's so so satisfying you
know and and you know each photograph is expensive because
it's it comes at a cost um but i really love that you know and i think um i
would love to save up for like a like a um a like a digital camera you know
and just get back to that um that a bit more of a manual experience and and of course like you know.
I'll miss photographs for sure that's part of it but um but maybe there's something
to be gained by missing some photos to to be able to be more present and more
part of the photographic um,
you know, moment with a camera like that. That's not quite as fast.
So are you the kind of person who always carries his camera along or would you
just take your camera when you know you're out for your project and then maybe
even use your cell phone or something? Or is that ridiculous?
No, no. So I'm really the kind of photographer that,
because I think in stories now, i
i i really only take my camera out when i'm
on you know and um i it's
funny because when you're when you're working you're looking the
whole time and you're you're like constantly like vigilant
and you're and you're kind of like you know on adrenaline you're
just looking for things and you're scanning the whole time but
when i'm like you know with my family relaxing or um.
Without a camera or you know wherever i am with no
camera i don't see photos you know i you
know i mean like like you don't see photographic opportunities
um it's like your brain is like
switched off in that moment and you're just like you're in a normal it's just
normal matte mode you know and so those you know very rarely
you might see something that's like oh that's the photo it's a very obvious situation
but i think like um the photographers
like you know there's like street photographers that just see things in the
street that like how did you see that but that's
just so um you you know yeah how
on earth did you see that comes from just like walking in
the same streets again and again and sharpening that like
the part of you that sees those things in the scene
um and and the average
person without a camera is never going to recognize that
you know i think isn't that what's that quote about like um
i'm sure there's a great quote there
is a great quote about just yeah being you know essentially paraphrasing it's
like you know um good photography is like is not just like taking a photograph
of an obvious thing it's about seeing something like extraordinary in in the
ordinary something that's just all around you but then you you're i think um it's not steven shaw,
to come back to that but yeah yeah.
Uh and so so street photography is not something that that intrigues you or
that you say okay now i i go out with my camera and and do a some street photography
and and well take these pictures of the extraordinary in the ordinary yeah
No i i think um like you know to a to a uh to a point i like street photography
you know i i sort of mentioned And I really got into Alex Webb's work.
He's like the ultimate, well, one of the ultimate shoot photographers.
So, no, I absolutely love the photographers that can make these complex, beautiful images.
And it's storytelling, but it's very different to working on a story.
It's almost like you're creating little worlds. and you're not,
you know, it's not necessarily like news related or this big issue.
It's like, no, there's a little world that's your little scene and you've captured
that and that's such a beautiful thing to do.
And so, yeah, I love it. And, you know, there's definitely crossover.
Like, you know, when I work on an assignment, sometimes...
You know, you're not just photographing like these obvious things that like about the story.
You're actually, um, very often I try to, you know, you're trying to create
a show people, um, the atmosphere, the, uh, a taste of what life is like.
And say you're in, um, Samoa or Tonga, you want to show like a street scene
to, you know, it might have nothing to do with the story, but it,
it, it gives people a sense of place.
And then it, when they're, when they're reading this story
about let's say it's about china's influence in in this in
the tonga or something you know people go
oh this is what life is like over there um and so there's there's
a really strong correlation between you know street photography and and and
journalism yeah i think um so yeah um yeah i i enjoy doing that and um i think
there's plenty of people that do it much better than i do um but yeah it's something
that um is for sure something that i like to do yeah.
What are your influences? What other photographers do you consider as your references
that you draw inspiration from?
Okay, that's a good question.
It's changing all the time, you know, and I think I draw influences from not
just photography, but from, you know.
From film, from painting,
Because I started out with an interest in painting. So, whenever I go to,
you know, just an art gallery and you see this, like, you see,
like, you know, particularly, you know, Renaissance painting,
you know, the complex compositions of Renaissance.
I mean, that's how I was sort of, I was like taught that classical way with painting.
And then it applies very much to photography, you know, that Rembrandt lighting
that we all work so well in photography is, you know, it's 100% applicable.
So, yeah, so really inspired by art.
I think I'm inspired by just like, you know, finding,
it's again, it's a storytelling, it's a bit boring, but yes,
it's just inspired by stories and how to, like,
what's the best where to photograph this like how do i try to figure it out
you know what's what's the what's your approach um i'm in terms of like photographers
let's think i mean there are photographers that um have had a huge influence
on the way that we work like alec soth uh soth is probably one um,
not the biggest fan but it's undeniable his
his influence he's had on on you know portraiture and
the way that we photograph um i'd say and you know
then of course you got the classics you've got like um robert frank
of the americans you know that reportage um you
know you've got um yeah but at the
moment i you know i've been looking to like joel sternfield um i
think his work is very curious for me and um um this might be getting a little
bit of a departure but i'm beginning okay let me try to figure this out so i'm
beginning to take an interest in photography that is not necessarily beautiful,
that is potentially hard to look at, but it is...
Yeah, because I think my background in photography has always been in this, like, in beauty.
And, you know, I guess I'm beginning to question a little bit why images need to be beautiful.
And sometimes often very nostalgic as well. There's a lot of,
I think in my work, there's a lot of nostalgia.
And this is almost like a crux. You're relying on this feeling that people will
see a photograph and they go,
oh wow like you know the beautiful colors a beautiful light you know of a very
intense maybe even depressing scene um but i've been speaking with um um i have
a mentor actually um in in in holland uh corinne nerbos um i'm not sure if you
heard that name um and she's just an uh,
absolutely incredible thinker in photography and she's really opened my eyes
to um the idea of working in a way that is.
The best way to explain it would be like you have,
you might have like a survey of work that's and
you might make a book and it's a collection of images that make up
a survey um whether you're a street photographer or
you're doing portraits or you all that kind of thing and and that
way of working is great and you're making these beautiful images and
interesting images um but the way that she explained
it to me this other way of thinking about how to use
photography in a in a format of a book is instead
of making like a you know a best of best of
album right you know you this is your best images throughout and you put
them all together it's like you're trying to
make a you're trying to make a
um you know if you're if you're an author and you
write a novel it has to be coherent you're making
a novel that you read that you follow through the
whole so it's it's it's trying
to make a photo book that is so coherent
that you can read it like a novel and that is sort of
my my interest now and it's I'm
exploring um and and potentially I
have an idea and and it's that I want to pursue and it's yeah really it's about
that's really sort of in a way it's kind of hardcore storytelling um the the
beauty the there's no there's nothing else there's no other distractions it's
it's about trying to um yeah yeah so I'm kind of interested in that in that in that,
concept and and something that's what I want to explore you know.
So what is the importance for you, the way you show your pictures?
Would you prefer your pictures in a book, like a coherent work?
Or are you satisfied with an exhibition like this, where you have your pictures
displayed in huge size for several months?
Or there are so many ways of showing your pictures that are really important
to you and not those that are on an assignment.
What would be your favorite way of seeing your pictures?
Yeah, so I think it really depends on what it is you've been photographing,
you know, or what you're trying to say with your work as well.
So this work, actually we were chatting before, you know, I've made a book of
the Black Summer Bushfires and the book was not an artistic photo book,
It was a book for the masses, you know, massive print run.
It was for the public to see. And because, like, I don't see this work as anything
but, you know, journalism, photojournalism, you know.
It's showing people, telling a story about this terrible time.
And so the format right now of being out in the open and in public,
have these large images, it's perfect.
It's perfect for these images, I think.
Um you know um if i was making you know for my next book you know of my next
project in america in the rust belt um you know probably not as important to
have those images outside.
Being yeah maybe it'd be great as well but but but less so i feel like um this
is about sort of showing the world what happened and and and and um this is
like yeah it really suits this style of,
this kind of story I guess so thinking about,
what it is you're trying to say with your work and choosing the best sort of format for that.
So for the Rust Belt project, I'm really excited to publish it and that would
be a very different book. It would be more of an artist book.
It would be, you know, a lot of, you know, I'd be, a lot of my priority would
be on the quality of the printing.
You know, it would be not much text, you know,
it would be letting the photographs do the talking because it's not
necessarily about trying to inform or educate a population about about you know
it's it's it's about actually creating a sense of uh intrigue and wonder and
whatever it is that you're trying
to do with that kind of more of a conceptual way of working yeah how.
Deliberate do you go about mapping out your career as a photo journalist or
as a photographer uh is that something like
a master plan in your mind that you maybe think in steps or in phases of your career?
It's funny, I was just thinking about that only before we spoke,
because I was thinking about it and thinking, well,
you know, looking around here, you see these amazing photographers and they
have a very consistent way of working and they are chipping away and they're
doing projects and it always seems to be consistent.
For me, my problem, I think, is that I'm so fascinated by and love with photography
in a way and storytelling that I feel compelled,
for better or for worse, probably for worse, to then mix it up and go,
oh, I'm going to go and do this art project that's really conceptual.
It's got nothing to do with journalism because everyone knows me for journalism you
know and people follow me and they're expecting me to
do this but i'm gonna go and do some art project that probably is
not gonna land quite well with the people that like me
for my photojournalism so so
i'm not really sure that's a very wise thing to do but i
i also it's very hard to um i i've always just followed my um my my curiosity
you know and it's probably not a smart decision but i really just want to make
this art project in in the us and i wanted this other art project after that
as well so so yeah there's probably like a yeah practically i probably should continue,
you know investing my time and energy into photojournalism but um yeah i i can't
deny this other interest i have and yeah to make other kind of images and other kinds of work.
Yeah you won all these awards like world press photo award pictures of the year
and and all So the question comes to my mind,
is this something that you were dreaming of since you were a kid or is it something
so that you planned maybe the steps to get to this point or is it something that just happened?
So...
I, I don't know, I, I, um,
when I first started getting into, um, you know, storytelling and documentary
photography, it was actually by traveling and, and, um, by taking images on,
you know, it's almost like street photography, really.
I was traveling around South America making images and then I went to Danish
Jewel Journalism and then I spent, you know, three, well,
two years and then a lot longer onwards working in a very remote part of Australia
called Arnhem Land and, you know,
and really I had 10 years where I was really dedicating myself to documentary
photography and not making any progress, not having any success.
Um i was kind of like working with film where
everyone else was everyone else that was getting work was it was already shooting
digital cameras and you know i was i was out bush in the middle of nowhere and
i started making work that that that very few people have seen you know um and
so i had um i felt like i was making good images and i felt like i was getting really good at.
At at you know
At photography you know but at the same time i was so detached from the rest
of of reality you You know, I wasn't engaging with photo festivals or photo editors or newspapers.
You know, all my colleagues had gone through cadetships or they'd been out there
working for publications.
And so, to be really honest with you, I did 10 years of this and I wasn't making
the right decisions. And I more or less kind of gave up on photojournalism and
documentary photography.
You know, I was like, there's no future for me here. There's no,
you know, nothing's happening.
You know, um, I, I really, I really tried. And then, um, I, then I think what
it was and I'd been working on all these projects.
I've got so many of these projects I've, I've, um, these personal art projects
all shot in film that I have.
I have dozens of boxes of, you know, hundreds of rolls of film and someday I'll
do something with them, but I wasn't getting them out.
You know, I wasn't finishing projects and, but what really changed for me was,
um, yeah, meeting my wife and who's a journalist and, and sort of just sharpening
those, those skills and thinking about it in that way of like, you know, story first.
It's all about the story that it doesn't matter how good your photographs are.
If you're not, if there's no story behind them, it means nothing.
Um and so to answer your question i i basically no no i never thought i'd be like getting.
Acknowledgement or getting sent to a photo festival on
the other side of the world or you know because um yeah
you know i've always i i struggled for a very
very long time and then even um even
when these you know that this was a really
kind of career defining moment for me when the black summer
bushfires happen um you could never imagine a
massive world news story like this coming to australia like it just was not
even part of my imagination so you know what while while i was photographing
this um you might be interested to know that like um yeah i sure i was already
at that point working for the new york times but it's it's um you know um,
But when this happened, this is a shot in story, you know, and I spent two months
probably nearly working most of the time, you know, working heavily on documenting these fires.
And there was like a little bit of interest internationally, but not much.
And it was very frustrating. And I remember it was kind of a moment.
I was like, you know, really, I was going, you know, this career is so unsustainable
and so like, you know, so frustrating.
Because I was seeing these incredible and documenting these incredible moments
and what I thought was important, but there was not this global or international
interest. It was just still very much an Australian story.
But the day that that changed was this photograph of this kangaroo.
Not that that image changed the course of the reporting, but it just so happened
that there's also thousands of people cut off.
By the fires on that day, and it just kind
of exploded as a as a as an international
story um and um and i
would like it literally went from like nearly
no interest to insane interest like
we had my phone was just like just you
know people calling me journalists dozens of
journalists like reaching out to me oh we're coming to australia we're coming from we're coming
from you know france we're coming from whatever um can
we can we catch up with you can we follow you into the
fires you know i had a documentary crew wanting to do a
film on me you know it just it just changed and and i yeah it
was impossible to imagine that before that happened um and i
was absolutely i was like so thrilled that this work was like acknowledged
at world press um and i was you know yeah for the first time sent overseas to
exhibit photos and um yeah so so that yeah but it's definitely not something
that you could imagine happening and especially a story of such significance
uh taking place just just down not down the road but you know close to where I live you know,
yeah you think of these bigger stories happening elsewhere I guess yeah.
Take us into the moment that you took this photo of the kangaroo that won your WordPress photo award.
Do you still remember the circumstances? And did you feel after taking the shot
that this could possibly be a defining shot of your career or a pivotal moment?
Yeah okay so i just mentioned that i've been photographing these fires for two
months and it was just an overwhelming amount of like devastation that we'd
been recording and so you kind of get a little bit um i mean it was incredible
but you also get a little bit um,
not jaded but you just get so used to seeing this like you know thing and um and so this day,
And I was out there, you know, photographing in Conjola.
And it was just sort of around the corner from where I was. I was actually on
holidays with my family.
And so it was very close to where I was sort of holidaying.
And, you know, I'd already been photographing for months. And I told my wife,
I said, I got to go. This is going to be a big day. You know,
I could see the weather forecast.
And she was like, oh, do you really have to go? That was that kind of vibe, you know.
And so I was slow in leaving. I was meant to be, my mate Nick Moyer,
who I mentioned before, he's like, get to Cobargo, which actually was a major
catastrophe, probably one of the worst of that time.
But I never made it because I was too late. That fire in Cobargo was burning at 3 a.m. in the morning.
It was burning like the kind of fire activity you'd only ever see normally in
the middle of the day, you know, with the extreme heat. But this situation was
so extreme and so unprecedented, really.
So anyway, I was heading to Cobargo and then I was driving down late and then
I saw this kind of like smoke plume happening.
And one of the advice of Nick to me was always, if you see something, stay there.
Don't try to go somewhere else because you don't know.
You don't know you could if you keep going down south you might be cut
off at a police roadblock and and and uh you
know and not good access so anyway i was
driving in i saw this big smoke plume and just as
i saw it the police was setting up this roadblock and i just managed
to like squeeze past before that they shut things
down and um and i got in and and sure enough this fire was just it was early
in the morning but there's a massive they produce this like kind of um like
storm like pyrocumulus it's terrifying seeing this thing come towards you and
um anyway um sort of this is like a bit of a long version of the story but.
Um, yeah, this day was, I got a phone call from my editor while I was in the
middle of the fire, you know, from, from the New York Times saying,
Hey Mac, can you, can you, can you work for us?
I was like, yeah, yeah, of course. Yeah. I'm in the fire. Like, don't worry.
I'm getting, and I'd already seen, I've been photographing and for hours and
being making really strong images, you know?
And so, so I was, you know, photographing for so long.
And then, um, this image happened, I think it was about 1 PM.
So it looks like nighttime, but really it's middle of the day. um and
i i was photographing the this house burning
and it's just like another house burning like like like
the hundreds i've seen before um but i
guess yeah of course what was different about this was i i saw this
like kangaroo um you know got frightened
like trying to figure out what how to get it get
away from this you know from the scene and and then all of a sudden it kind
of just darted right in front of me you know and i'd already my camera was already
sort of set to photograph that house and it just was a matter of just being
able to take the photo in that moment and frame it in that composition, that way.
And truthfully,
I took the photo. I thought, okay, cool. But I never allow myself to think I've
got the photo. I said it before.
I never want to be like, congratulate myself and pat myself on the back and
think, oh, time to go. You got the photo.
I deliberately shut my thinking down and think, what's next?
What's next? What's the next photograph? Where do I need to be now?
And so, yeah, I would have acknowledged it was a good photo,
but I was thinking, where do I need to be next?
And so, after that moment, I raced down to the beach.
And that's when I was photographing these thousands of people. you can
see these people and because you know showing the
human impact is so hard to do in a in an
emergency situation like that um because you're you're
not able to move around a lot you know and your your access is
very very difficult because you're confined to this
one area so i was down to the beach to photograph these um
these uh these these poor people that were
you know were cut off and had potentially losing homes
and um stranded and and struggling to breathe and
you know because the smoke was there and they weren't prepared with masks
and then after that i was back up to this the next the next
image oh hang on what one of the next images you
know um you know another house is burning and so it
was just like it was just on and on and on and then after that i went to this
valley and i saw there's 180 homes were destroyed you know i was just it was
just a surreal scene being by completely alone just me cruising through this
apocalyptic scene uh seeing this devastation and you're just you're all alone
and you're thinking yourself well,
your brain power is like how to be safe like where's the power lines where's
the trees that could fall on me where's the dangers you're constantly thinking danger danger danger.
Um, yeah. And, and so you're, and you know, I made this image for some,
I don't know why they didn't use it for this exhibition, but,
um, of this melted, I don't know if you've seen that photograph.
It's probably my favorite photo in some ways. Um, this car was completely melted
and it's like, almost like blood coming from the car, you know?
And it's, um, so you're just, you're making these images and,
um, again, you're not thinking, you're not overthinking it.
And I have trouble remembering because you're just so overwhelmed with like,
with, with, with what's happening.
You're just you know you're just trying to focus on on what's next and and keeping
safe so to answer your question um so this is actually i i personally find this
quite yeah interesting because i like thinking back on it because i um was making all these images.
And um then i went to another town after
it you know and i was just like i'm just like relentless keep working
keep working keep working and i'm used to i'm not really
like a press photographer where like I'm file images straight away
you know a press photographer would have stopped filed images kept
working but I'm thinking like just record this record this
moment don't waste any time on the computer like I want to this
is so important um so you know I'm in my forward drive I'm like I'm like yeah
people were stranded but I basically found a way out you know driving zigzagging
around these trees had fallen over and and I found another community that was
hit by the fire I found this grave site that's just on fire which is a surreal apocalyptic scene,
And then, so I'm working till late in the evening, you know,
just to make the most of this, you know, to be able to be there.
I recognize it was important.
And then, so this is, this is New Year's Day. Sorry, this is New Year's Eve.
And so Sydney is famous for the, you know, Australia's famous for these big
parties we have. And so I'm, so I'm photographing this and it's about 10 PM at night.
I'm just absolutely like covered in like in black, you know, soot and.
And, and, and
My eyes are like red from the, from the, from the, from the,
you know, from the, from the smoke and I'm absolutely exhausted.
So I'm driving back to this town where my family is because we're on holidays.
And then i get there so i wander in yeah
and like but meanwhile everyone was stranded because i couldn't get
out but because i had this car i could i was the only one really that was
able to move move around and i
walk in and they're just like playing some like you know board game or
something waiting for like um waiting for like the
the fireworks you know at sydney harbour and it was
such uh like uh head fuck
you know because you just spend a whole
day at this like in this in this absolute catastrophe
and you know and then their family is
just carrying on with their day yeah yeah yeah yeah you know and and um so sat
there i was like a little bit shell-shocked and tired and and i didn't look
at my images i i think i had already sent a batch to my photo editor in new
york and i went to bed you know and and and um anyway so work it the next morning and.
You know it's a big news that's when it really became a massive
international news story and um you know my editor was
like buzzing and it could tell that he was like you know hey man you know where
are those other images i was like oh okay cool i'll get into you so
i opened my laptop and i'm looking at the images and then my wife
is like yeah i mentioned before we're in holidays and there's an expectation the
whole time of like not working and so we went to the
beach and i was like went for a swim and um and my
editor was like um oh matt oh you got
anything special that's coming like he's kind of like prodding me you know like what you
know what's coming i said oh well this is like i got this one photo and i'm
and i took a photo of my laptop in that morning you know so it's on my on my
on my phone so i was just what goes one photo of this kangaroo that i reckon
could be quite good like do you want to see it and i was just like whatsapped
him and it's like yeah yeah can you get where like how quickly can you get me
the image you know i was like oh
i don't know i'm at the beach you know with the family like he's like oh can you can you like get,
basically he told me if you can get it to me in the next 20 minutes i can get on the front page
uh and of course that is a strong motivation for any um photographer to be to
be hurry so i raced back with the family he was like sorry guys you know i gotta
get back to the computer and i um yeah i got that image off to him and he got
it onto the front of the front page and.
Um the next day it ran on the front page and
then it um the day after that it was
like on dozens of world pages around the world it
was that was like totally surreal um to see
that image and the way that it it sort of got picked up
and um and and seen and then shared by
like Greta Thunberg and Leonardo DiCaprio and
those kinds of people and yeah it was it was awesome it was so much fun you
know to see that and and and um to know that like yeah my work was having an
impact and um and that finally like this this story that um you know I cared
so much about was It was getting the attention it deserved, yeah.
Wow, what a story behind the picture. It's, well, fascinating to hear all that context that you gave.
Always a hard question is what makes a good photo? Maybe we can stay with that photo.
Why do you think did that photo have that impact and that reaction?
Yeah, so something that I didn't really consider at the time,
but it's become very apparent to me now, is that the reason why this was such
a big story, I think, and such a monumental situation was the impact on the wildlife.
You know, three billion animals, I think the last count was,
that were killed by these fires.
And, you know, I think when you're in the country, it's happening.
Everyone's actually focusing on the human impact. You know, they're thinking,
oh, you know, 34 people died in these fires.
Thousands of homes were lost. So it's very, you're thinking about that.
And you know, of course, that a lot of animals are being killed.
But I actually since have spoken to an academic that was studying the coverage
of the fires and he shared some data with me and he said, yeah, actually,
so overwhelmingly the world was interested in the animal impact.
That was what they were focused on.
Um, and so he said something like, you know, which made sense to me now,
he said, well, your image, it, um, it spoke to this, you know,
it spoke to both the human impact cause you can see the house burning,
but it spoke to this iconic animal.
Um, that was, you know,
In, in harm's way of this fire.
And, um, and it's big,
It spoke for the, the, of course, the, just.
Um, sort of
Unimaginable loss of life from other species that were, that were killed.
So yeah, in that context, it kind of makes sense.
But I think, you know, something that we talk about a lot with other photographers
is that it's a very simple image, you know.
It really is. It's not like, it's not, you know, like I have photographer friends
who go, oh, that bloody kangaroo photo again, you know. And it's like,
yeah, like it's a very simple image.
It's not the most complicated, complex or, you know, image I've ever taken for sure.
You know, you're in Australia for sure.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
We have other fires on the planet, but there, you know, this is Australia.
That this is exactly what is going on now.
Yes, yeah. I think I really do believe actually that it's the simple images that convey a story,
immediately that uh have the
potential to be so impactful and and you
know you this as you say viral right if you look at the images of that um you
know the young boy that that drowned on the beach um um very simple image you
know um now think of another image taken um that went viral you know that went
around the world of um a young kid crying at the border in mexico very simple image you know,
yeah I think that you
know as photographers we love these complex you know the Alex we
love these complex images the composition the complexity that's what we love
but what really has the chance to have the most impact is these images that
hit you straight and quick you know there's actually just today Hans Bocard
am I pronouncing his name?
Hans-Jürgen Bocard Yeah, yeah. He said, I wrote it down, I thought it was a
really interesting quote.
He said, I want to take images that my mother understands, you know, my mother gets.
And it's really admirable, you know, because you're not out there trying to
show these complex, you know, arty images that only photographers are going to really understand.
But he's wanting to make images for the public to consume and to appreciate
and to see and I think that's a really admirable approach to photography and
so going back to that image it was a very simple image that immediately said
this is a fire in Australia and this is the impact.
That's an interesting point do you think that sometimes is sometimes what gets
in the way of really communicating the things you want to communicate to a wider
public if you think too much like a photographer.
And yeah, I think for sure style can get in the way.
You know, I think I mentioned before, I don't like to exaggerate things,
you know, use like wide angle lenses or there's different elements.
I like to really let the scene do the talking, you know, simple, simple is strong.
And so there it's all about the access and being the one in front and being there in that moment.
And that's a lot about people skills, convincing someone, I've got to be there,
let me in, you know, that kind of thing.
So, yeah, that's why I sort of revert back to this, I guess,
feeling that what I do is actually quite simple. It's actually simple photography.
And it's, yeah, it's about the scene and everything else.
It's just the, you know, you look at Trent Park's work, for example.
I mean, that's the polar opposite. That's very complex photography.
Incredible. He is a master of the medium, of film, of he pushes negatives and
he does the most incredible, complex things.
He will hit up his developer, use it at full, no dilution and crazy hot just
to get a particular look.
I love that. But yeah, photo nerds love his work.
You ask the average person off the street, hey, do you like Trent Pike's work?
They're not going to be able to really know his work so it's a very different
audience I think that he's speaking to versus what we as photojournalists do.
What kind of future do you see for photojournalism?
Great question. Something that we talk about all the time, you know,
getting to these photo festivals, a big theme, not to be a downer,
is just everybody telling everybody, you know, all these photographers coming together.
And the overwhelming experience amongst fellow photojournalists is that things
are really bleak at the moment, you know, really tough, you know.
And so in some ways, yeah, it's a bit of a downer, you know, got to be honest.
I look at what I do in Australia and I have the opinion that even though I've
won awards and things, I still don't really feel like I'm able to have a sustainable
career just making photojournalism.
It saddens me but that's just the reality um um
it's really tough and so you know
in my in my line of work like to survive financially i've got to you know diversify
is a fancy word but yeah i got to come up with other ways of working and um
you know we were talking before like one of the things i love to do is um is
teach and um yeah i really enjoy um leading workshops
workshops on storytelling um and then last year i did a more of a practical workshop where we,
traveled to antarctica with a group of sort of like-minded um
photographers and and that was that was exhausting and
and but it was also a great experience you know um and
so i think you know this is one part of how i'm
sort of like diversifying what i do i guess um and
that kind of work it helps you know it helps pay for for the
personal projects and um you know
like i do a bit of commercial work i even you know do like you know
headshots sometimes you know like you know like i'm
not gonna like um be all snooty and
turn up work you know works work you know like
um if someone asked me to shoot a wedding or something yeah sure yeah why not
you know um i'm not i'm not precious i you got to survive you got you got to
put you got to put in the table and um it's it's all just a means to be able
to yeah i think as long as for me as long as that work doesn't.
Distract or dominate so much i can't do my my passion you know what i feel like
i'm meant to be doing it's fine but i would never let it take over completely
and become like a like a corporate sellout you know like that kind of thing
yeah it's important that i i i keep it keep it at a distance yeah.
Let's touch on the workshop topic. What advice would you give to aspiring photojournalists?
What is the main thing that they should focus on?
Oh, big question. Okay, advice.
I think biggest mistakes people make is that they love photography,
but they're not really thinking about how their photography.
Is going to be used by other people, you know, and how that fits into the,
you know, not just photojournalism, of course.
So if you want to be a photojournalist, you need to understand what that publication is,
is interested in and the kind of stories that they want and you need to
come to them with that story you know you need to be if
you were to um you know if you're like calling the editor
and hey like i've got a story and you know it fits
in with their publication and you can do it at a reasonable you know
not too expensive you've got a great chance of just getting
a you know opportunity you know um so you
know um i would say just like yeah you need
to um i i would really always my
recommendation is to do everything but become an expert photographer
you know become an expert in politics
uh read understand what's going
on around around you um make networks and connections with with editors you
know they're not going to come to you you need you need to come to them you
know you need to be assertive and you've got to make your own opportunities
um and um that's challenging like you know it's not easy to to network and do
all those things but it's part of it you know um Um,
and so, yeah, like you, you're probably already a pretty good photographer,
you know, like, of course you can always get better, but, um,
you need to get, you need to do the things that might not seem sexy to do,
but are so important to make a.
To, to have a, you know, have a career in, in, in, in, in photojournalism.
Um, so I would never really recommend anybody to study photography.
I really, I really wouldn't. um i think it's so
much more important to you know if you're able to study even
just journalism would be helpful or if you studied like
um international politics or something that would be fantastic um so
yeah you know to be working for the um
you know for high-end publications you have to know that you have to have lived
in the world as well yeah and that would be the next point probably like life
experience you know because if you're rocking up you know i i what i love about
this job is you spend time with some of the most like,
disadvantaged people in very vulnerable situations. And then the next week,
you might get sent to hang out with some of the most wealthiest,
most powerful people in the world.
It's just the contrast is so extreme. And you need to be able to speak to both
those people and with confidence,
and be able to say, this is the story we're doing and this is why.
And you need to understand the larger picture here you know to be able to hold
your own in that kind of environment yeah.
Well thank you very much Matt I think well at the end some great advice for
aspiring photographers and great insight of your thinking as a photographer
was fascinating real pleasure talking to you thank you for taking the time No worries.
It's been great. I've really enjoyed this. So yeah, all the best.
Thank you so much.
No worries. Yeah. Thanks, Kai.
Thank you.
Cheers.
Kai Behrmann
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