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Bei Anruf Wein – der Weinpodcast

Weinfreunde.de
Since 04/2021 98 Episoden

Weinland Chile: Pazifik, Anden und wurzelechte Reben

26.11.2024 62 min

Zusammenfassung & Show Notes

2013 reiste Tobias nach Chile, um dort unter anderem das Weingut Montes zu besuchen. Es war ein wunderschöner Trip, der ihm noch lange in Erinnerung bleiben wird. Auffrischung gibt es in heutiger Folge: Nicht nur berichten Michael und Tobias alles Wissenswerte über das Weinland Chile, anschließend folgt passenderweise ein Interview mit Aurelio Montes Junior, dem Chief-Winemaker von Montes und Sohn des Mannes, den Tobias bereits vor über 10 Jahren kennenlernen durfte. Die Weinwelt ist also doch klein!

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Produktion und Schnitt: Andreas Hagelüken

Transkript

Michael
00:00:02
Bei Anruf Wein. Der Weinfreunde-Podcast.
Tobias
00:00:09
Ich grüße euch, liebe Weinfreunde. Mein Name ist Tobias. Willkommen Bei Anruf Wein. Mit dem Weinland Chile verbindet mich persönlich ganz viel, denn ich besuchte den Andenstaat vor über 10 Jahren selbst einmal. Eine faszinierende Reise mit für immer bleibenden Eindrücken und vielen hervorragenden Weinen. Damals lernte ich auch Aurelio Montes kennen, ein wahrer Pionier im Hinblick auf Premiumwein aus Chile. Man denke nur an die Montes-Alpha-Weine. Daher ist es mehr als passend, dass ich für diese Folge von Bei Anruf Wein ein ausführliches Interview mit Aurelio Montes Junior führen durfte, der heute für die Weine von Montes verantwortlich ist. Das Gespräch hört ihr direkt, nachdem Michael und ich die Basisinfos zum Weinland Chile zusammengetragen haben. Also bleibt mal dran. Ich ruf den mal an!
Michael
00:01:02
Michael: Buenos dias, mi amigo. ¿Cómo estás?
Tobias
00:01:05
Tobias: Ja, gut, gut.
Michael
00:01:05
Michael: Ja. Ja, Ja. Mein Spanisch ist ja heute gar nicht gefragt, ne? Du bist mir ja auch in dieser Folge wieder mal fremdgegangen, beim Weinland Chile. Doch, du hast mich einfach ausgebootet. ¡Qué vergüenza!
Tobias
00:01:20
Tobias: Also jetzt stell dich mal wirklich nicht so an, weil das war im Jahr 2013. Also ich glaube, da kannten wir uns noch nicht mal. Also lassen wir es einfach mal so stehen. Ich war schon in Chile und du halt nicht. So! Und dass ich obendrein damals Aurelio Montes kennenlernte, also den Grandseigneur des chilenischen Spitzenweins, und ich heute unseren Hörerinnen und Hörern ein Interview mit seinem Sohn Aurelio Montes Junior präsentieren darf, das ist ja schon geradezu schicksalshaft.
Michael
00:01:50
Michael: Ja, ja, ja, das hat schon was, zugegeben. Aber damit ist ja dann auch endgültig die Frage geklärt, ob du heute richtig Feuer und Flamme für unseren Podcast Nummer 96 übrigens bist? Ja, also ich sage jetzt mal ganz offiziell: Willkommen Bei Anruf Wein, und volle Konzentration auf das Weinland Chile.
Tobias
00:02:10
Tobias: Liebend gern, natürlich. Und hier schon mal die übergeordneten Koordinaten zur Einordnung sozusagen. Also wir befinden uns in der neuen Weinwelt. So nennt man das ja dann gerne, Neue Welt. Wir schauen also auf die Südhalbkugel und reden dennoch ganz viel über französische Rebsorten. Das wird auch gleich kommen. Aber das durchaus, sage ich mal, in einem sehr großen Maßstab. Mit etwa 200.000 Hektar Rebfläche ist das vermeintlich kleine Chile immerhin doppelt so groß wie alle deutschen Anbaugebiete zusammen.
Michael
00:02:44
Michael: Ja, und so ist es. Und ganz grob kann man sagen, es gibt die nördlichen Weinregionen und dann gibt es die im Süden und dann natürlich auch noch welche in der Mitte des Landes. Also drei Hotspots für den Weinbau da. Und das wisst ihr hoffentlich alle noch aus unserer Neuseeland-Folge: Süden bedeutet in der südlichen Hemisphäre kühl. Also dort ist halt der Norden, was für uns europäische Nasen der Süden ist. Also warm bis heiß und eher trocken. Ich sag jetzt nur mal als Stichwort, und um eure Vorstellung ein bisschen anzuregen, Atacama-Wüste. Ja, an diese grenzt nämlich Chile im Norden. Im Norden, also. Aber das Besondere an Chile für mich ist eigentlich, ich sage jetzt mal, dieses geografische Schmalspurformat.
Tobias
00:03:35
Tobias: Das ist ein gutes Stichwort, aber ich bleibe jetzt mal bei dem Schmalspurformat. Das hört sich jetzt zwar wenig schmeichelhaft an, aber ich weiß schon, worauf du damit anspielst. Chile zieht sich nämlich ziemlich in die Länge und geht eigentlich nirgends wirklich in die Breite. Also schaut mal alle im Atlas nach, wenn ihr so was noch habt, oder meinetwegen auch auf Google Maps. Also Chile ist der Streifen an der Westküste Südamerikas, der sich vom 17. Breitengrad hinunter bis zum südlichen Polarmeer erstreckt.
Michael
00:04:08
Michael: Ja, ja, genau. Und Streifen bedeutet auch noch was. Ja, im Westen von Chile liegt immer der Pazifik. Ja, und im Osten wird das Land über die gesamte Länge quasi von den Anden behütet. Also meist vor Argentinien, aber das lassen wir jetzt mal an dieser Stelle. Also in Kilometern ausgedrückt: Über 6.000 Kilometer Küstenlinie stehen quasi über 6.000 Kilometer Hochgebirge gegenüber. Das ist Chile. Und die Schriftstellerin Isabel Allende kennen wir, glaube ich, alle, sie nannte ihre Heimat deshalb auch mal das langgestreckte Land. Ja, das finde ich schön. Die Küste hier, Anden dort. Das ist jetzt ja nicht nur geographisch interessant, sondern verweist eben auch maßgeblich auf so wichtige Faktoren für den Weinbau in Chile.
Tobias
00:05:03
Tobias: Ja, so ist es. Genau, Michael. Und ich sehe schon, du bist dieses Mal ja richtig gut vorbereitet. Also beide Faktoren sorgen nämlich dafür, dass nicht nur die vielen Sonnenstunden zum Weinbau einladen, denn sowohl der Pazifik mit dem kalten Humboldtstrom als auch die Anden-Ausläufer mit den großen Temperaturunterschieden zwischen Tag und Nacht mildern die viele Sonne mit deutlich kühlenden Effekten ab. Also es ist genau dieses Zusammenspiel, das das Weinland so einzigartig macht und hat halt eben auch an der Stelle nicht diese enorme Anzahl an Höhenlagen wie Argentinien beispielsweise.
Michael
00:05:44
Michael: Okay, ja. Aber, muss man auch ansprechen, das Problem heißt: Wasser.
Tobias
00:05:49
Tobias: Ja, Stimmt.
Michael
00:05:50
Michael: Die Niederschlagsmengen sind allgemein eher gering. Ja, außer in diesem berühmten El-Niño-Jahren, wenn alles irgendwie feucht und stürmisch wird.
Tobias
00:06:00
Tobias: Ja, das braucht man immer ja auch nicht.
Michael
00:06:01
Michael: Allgemein gesprochen ist Chile einfach ein trockenes Land, weshalb die Bewässerung der Rebflächen in einigen Regionen, ich sage jetzt mal, Standard ist, also unverzichtbar ist, sonst geht da nichts mit Weinen. Ja, und genau das wird in – Achtung, dein Stichwort – Zeiten des Klimawandels ja zu einem immer größeren Problem.
Tobias
00:06:22
Tobias: Ja, Wasser ist wirklich ein gutes Stichwort. Darüber habe ich nach meiner Reise nach Chile sogar einen Bericht für das Weinmagazin Weinwisser geschrieben und mit – ja, ja – und mit Aurelio Montes Junior spreche ich darüber im folgenden Interview natürlich auch, weil die machen beispielsweise trotzdem Dry Farming, also versuchen immer mehr auch Wasser zu sparen. Da gibt es also eine sehr, sehr interessante Entwicklung. Deswegen bleibt bitte lange genug dabei, denn das Interview mit ihm ist nicht nur in dieser Hinsicht sehr aufschlussreich. Aber ich wende das jetzt erst einmal ins Positive. Muss man ja auch mal sagen. Pilzkrankheiten zählen jetzt nicht so zu den Herausforderungen des Weinbaus in Chile. Also zumindest viel, viel weniger als andernorts. Das erledigt sozusagen dieses trockene Klima weitestgehend ganz alleine.
Michael
00:07:12
Michael: Ja, das hast du jetzt schön gewendet. Aber tatsächlich war das auch ein Grund, warum schon die spanischen Eroberer, wenn man das so sagen darf, Eroberer im 16. Jahrhundert edle Weinreben nach Chile gebracht haben. Also die haben auch gemerkt, hier geht was. Also umso bemerkenswerter ist es ja, dass wir beim Weinland Chile heute eben nicht an spanische Rebsorten wie Tempranillo und Garnacha, Verdejo oder sogar Albariño reden, sondern eigentlich durchgehend über französische Reben, und vor allem Rebsorten aus dem Bordeaux. Denke ich an Chile, fallen mir bei den Rotweinen zuerst Cabernet Sauvignon, Merlot und Carménère ein. Alles Bordeaux-Reben. Also wir nehmen jetzt mal den Syrah außen vor von der Rhône, darüber haben wir ja letztens schon gesprochen.
Tobias
00:08:01
Tobias: Ja, ja, das stimmt schon. Also dir müsste es ja eigentlich richtig wehtun, dass deine geliebten spanischen Rebsorten in Chile nicht zu finden sind. Und interessanterweise ist das ja bei den weißen Rebsorten eben nicht anders. Du hast ja gerade schon gesagt, Verdejo, Albariño gibt es in Chile eher nicht. Auch da sind es eben die französischen Sorten. Also ganz konkret Sauvignon Blanc und Chardonnay. Das sind eigentlich so die Stars der weißen Rebsorten in Chile. Und im Endeffekt erklärt sich das auch ganz einfach. Also der erste große Sprung des Weinlands Chile findet nämlich im 19. Jahrhundert statt, als die französischen Weine eben das Nonplusultra darstellen. Und damals sind es eben die vermögenden Familien aus dem In- und Ausland, die in den chilenischen Weinbau investieren und nur das Beste vom Besten wollen. Also ganz einfach eben französische Rebsorten und möglichst halt eben auch Weine mit der super Qualität, die man aus dem Bordeaux kannte.
Michael
00:08:58
Michael: Da hatte es auch ominöse Blindverkostungen gegeben. Aber das Phänomen ist ja nicht nur im 19. Jahrhundert zu beobachten, das ist im 20. Jahrhundert genauso. Das wiederholt sich quasi noch einmal. Also so große Namen, die wir jetzt aus Chile kennen. So was wie Luis Felipe Edwards eben halt Montes oder auch Rothschild. Ja, die setzen in den 1970er-Jahren aufwärts genauso überzeugt auf diese französischen Rebsorten. Zumal, und das Argument wird dann echt wichtiger, diese Reben in Chile eigentlich französischer sind als die Verwandten in Frankreich. Stichwort Reblauskatastrophe.
Tobias
00:09:39
Tobias: Ja, da hast du natürlich recht. Aber das muss man jetzt den Zuhörerinnen und Zuhörern noch mal genauer erklären. Also die Reblaus hat es, ja, man kann eigentlich sagen nie wirklich nach Chile geschafft, nur so vereinzelt, aber man findet dort eben noch beispielsweise wurzelechten Cabernet Sauvignon, Merlot oder auch Carménère. Ja, also keine Reben, die auf amerikanische Reben gepfropft werden mussten, so wie es in Europa seit den 1860er-Jahren quasi Standard ist. Sondern das sind aus Europa eingeführte Reben noch auf den originalen Wurzeln. Und das ist natürlich in Argentinien ähnlich, aber mit Blick auf die gesamte Weinwelt wirklich eine Besonderheit. Also wie du schon gesagt hast, die Reben sind somit eigentlich originaler als unsere Reben in Europa.
Michael
00:10:27
Michael: Also mich musst du gar nicht überzeugen. Ich bin ein großer Chile-Fan. Nicht nur was die Weine betrifft, die im, wie sagt man das heute so schön, in diesem Preis-Genuss-Verhältnis einfach Spitze sind. Das muss man an der Stelle ja auch mal sagen. Aber ich bin auch Chile-Fan, wenn es um Literatur und Spirituosen geht. Du kennst mich, das passt immer gut zusammen. Roberto Bolaño. Ja, das ist für mich einer der größten Autoren des 20. Jahrhunderts überhaupt. Und Pisco? Hast du schon mal Pisco probiert?
Tobias
00:10:59
Tobias: Ja, allerdings. Und ich muss zugeben, das war auch damals in Chile zum ersten Mal. Pisco Sour gab es auf der Reise, ja, ich sage mal, bereits vor jedem Mittagessen, also vorher. Glücklicherweise sind wir immer mit dem Bus rumkutschiert worden. Aber Pisco Sour ist seitdem einer meiner Lieblingsdrinks. Ein Rezept dazu findet sich übrigens auch auf meinem Blog. Muss ich ja vielleicht auch mal erwähnen, auf weinlakai.de hatte ich damals unbedingt aufschreiben müssen, weil ich so begeistert war. Einfach mal die Suchfunktion benutzen. Pisco P-I-S-C-O. Ach so, und meinen Beitrag über den Wassermangel in Chile, der im Weinwisser veröffentlicht wurde, auch den findet man auf weinlakai.de.
Michael
00:11:40
Michael: Ja, ja, ja. Jetzt ist gut, weißt du? Du schimpfst immer über mich, wenn ich Werbung mache. Ja, aber na gut, lassen wir das jetzt mal weg. Noch viel überraschender, ich staune geradezu, du hast einen Lieblingsdrink? Ja, so kenne ich das gar nicht. Das ist das erste Mal, dass ich davon höre. Ja, aber nur mal kurz erklärt für alle anderen. Pisco ist ein Weinbrand, der in Chile meist aus der Rebsorte Moscatel de Alexandria erzeugt wird. Also, Pisco ist so etwas wie ein südamerikanischer Cognac oder Weinbrand. Ja, und bis heute streiten sich Chile und Peru, ausnahmsweise mal nicht Argentinien, ganz heftig darüber, wo liegt jetzt eigentlich die ursprüngliche Heimat des Pisco? Wer hat ihn erfunden?
Tobias
00:12:28
Tobias: Wer hat's erfunden? Ja, genau das habe ich damals auch mitbekommen, diese Streitigkeit. Aber logischerweise haben alle gesagt, er kommt aus Chile. War aber ja auch nicht so verwundernswert. Aber jetzt bleibe bitte mal bei der Sache. Nix Peru, nix Pisco und jetzt auch nix mehr mit Literatur. Wir sind nach wie vor im Weinland Chile und den Zuhörerinnen und Zuhörern noch die wichtigsten Weinregionen schuldig. Fang doch mal an mit der Aufzählung, sozusagen.
Michael
00:12:55
Michael: Okay, also ich mache das jetzt mal. Ne, ich beginne mal mit A wie Aconcagua. Ja, Aconcagua. Das hört sich doch schön.
Tobias
00:13:05
Tobias: Sehr schön.
Michael
00:13:05
Michael: Also, das ist aber eine relativ kleine Weinregion, jetzt auch für chilenische Verhältnisse. Aber das Anbaugebiet Valle de Aconcagua, ja, ist bei uns in Europa sicherlich so mit das Bekannteste aus Chile. Ja, also jetzt noch mal zur Einordnung: Wir befinden uns im warmen, heißen Norden des Landes und damit zunächst einmal auf Rotweingebiet. Ganz klare Bestimmung. Aber aufgrund der besonderen Topografie dieser Weinregion gibt es mit dem Valle de Casablanca, schöner Name, und im Valle de San Antonio auch Anbaugebiete, die tolle Weißweine hervorbringen. Also diese Täler profitieren nämlich sowohl vom kühlenden Pazifik als auch von den Küstengebirgen.
Tobias
00:13:51
Tobias: Ja, und beim Stichwort Norden, dann sind wir natürlich auch beim sogenannten Valle Central. Das ist die flächenmäßig größte Weinregion des Landes. Und hier kennt vielleicht der ein oder andere das Anbaugebiet Valle de Colchagua. Die Rotweine von dort finden nämlich schon seit Jahren ihren Weg nach Europa und haben mal locker formuliert, sage ich mal, die Türe für chilenischen Spitzenwein bei uns ganz weit aufgestoßen. Dort sitzt im Übrigen auch das Weingut Montes und das hat sogar Weinberge im Apalta-Tal. Und das gilt so als die beste Lage in Colchagua. Eigentlich sogar, zumindest haben die mir das damals so erklärt, ist das sogar die beste Weinlage für Rotwein in ganz Chile.
Michael
00:14:37
Michael: Ja, ja, du sicherst dir wieder die beste Rotwein Lage in ganz Chile, also okay. Aber ernst gesprochen, Colchagua, das war auch mein erster Kontakt mit Chile. Und wenn wir jetzt von Norden Richtung Süden wandern, dann bleibt halt nur dieser kühle, feuchte Süden des Landes. Und ja, was gibt es da zu berichten? Also in den vergangenen Jahren hat es vermehrt irgendwie Erzeuger gegeben in der Anbauregion - Achtung - Bío-Bío. Also die heißt wirklich so. Die haben so auf sich aufmerksam gemacht, weil sie dann plötzlich tolle Einzelweine, tolle Flaschenweine hergestellt haben. Denn traditionell gesehen ist das die Region, wo eben der Grundwein für den Pisco, also für diesen Weinbrand, entsteht. Aber in Bío-Bío, das muss man dazu sagen, ist natürlich nicht alles Bio, ja?
Tobias
00:15:30
Tobias: Ein schöner Wortwitz. Ja und das mit dem Pisco, das hatten wir ja auch schon, das müssen wir jetzt auch nicht mehr ausführen. Also ich glaube auch tatsächlich, das reicht jetzt eigentlich so als Basisinformation, um so eine allgemeine Vorstellung vom Weinland Chile zu erhalten. Denn jetzt kommt ja schließlich auch noch das Interview mit Aurelio Junior und der erzählt mir wirklich jede Menge Insights aus allererster Hand. Da kann ich einfach nur sagen: Bleib mal dran...
Michael
00:16:02
Michael: Ja, ja, der Tobias spricht den jetzt an! Ich weiß schon, so geht es weiter. Ich bin jetzt raus. Also von meiner Seite. Bis zum nächsten Mal. Hasta la proxima.
Tobias
00:16:12
Tobias: Jo, bis denne. Ja, Aurelio, very nice to meet you. Hi.
Aurelio
00:16:18
Hello, Tobias. Great to meet you.
Tobias
00:16:20
Yeah. And speaking of meeting you, I haven't met you in person, but I've actually already met your father. In 2013, I've visited Montes in Chile during a press trip. It was a wonderful time, but I think it was still around that time where you have been in Argentina managing the Kaiken winery, right?
Aurelio
00:16:45
Exactly. I became the winemaker of Montes in the year 2007, and after a few years working for Montes, I decided to move as the head winemaker and technical director of Kaiken in Argentina. So I moved to Argentina from 2011 till 16. So it was a nice, nice experience.
Tobias
00:17:07
Okay, yeah, that's sounds very very interesting and we're going to talk about this whole family affair bit later before our talk have already spoken with my co-host Michael about the basics of the wine country Chile. That's why you would like to ask you to tell me something about you and how you became part in the world of wine.
Aurelio
00:17:35
Well, it's a family story. Montes story that it's part of my story. It's started in the year 87, 88, when my father decided to change the wine industry in Chile. He decided to push for the quality and trying to show the world that Chile was a unique and special country, that we could produce amazing quality. And, I was a kid at that time, and my father, he started in a very simple way without money. He was fired from his old job because he was too crazy for the company. And his boss told him, you know, you're too crazy with your crazy ideas, trying to transform all the wine from simple entry level to premium level. No one's going to buy a bottle of Chilean premium wine. So my father being in the street with five kids, no money, he decided to do it anyway. So he invited three partners and so on. And they started in a garage and they started producing the first premium wine from Chile. So for me, the wine has been part of the wine industry or the winemaking has been part of my life since I was born. I still remember when I was a very kid running in between the tanks and the bats, you know, with my sister and brothers. And that smell of the of the winery of fermentation, and it was part of my life. So, after that I saw my father suffering, putting a lot of energy and passion in his new project. So in my mind it was like, what is going on here? You know, there's for sure there's something special in this beautiful world of wine. So but the funny story is, after that, I became a young person, and I decided not to become a winemaker because I was really focused on sports. And I loved to be outside. And at that time, being a winemaker used to be like a winemaker inside of a lab. All day in the laboratory and doing analysis and all this stuff. And I wanted to be a free guy, you know, running outside. So step by step, I decided to study agronomic engineer. And when you study agronomic engineer, there's a five year study. You have to go through different areas. Cattles, farm, you know, ledges, soil, winemaking, fruity culture. So I decided to became a fruity culture guy. And then day by day, I decided, well, maybe I can study a second career as a winemaker. And I decided to study winemaking. And after that I decided to travel in the world. So I got a job in Australia, and my first job was in a winery, and then I got in love with all that experience. Then I traveled to another winery in Australia, and then I moved to another winery in California. So after that, I really got in love with this very special world of wine. And of course, my father was doing a quiet job behind me, trying to push me in a friendly way to become a winemaker. So for me, it has been a very natural process to become a winemaker and to be today the winemaker of Montes.
Tobias
00:21:27
Tobias: That's a great story. And you have already mentioned it, your father was pushing you in a friendly way, because that's what I wanted to ask, though there was not a lot of convincing necessary, or some pressure from his side?
Aurelio
00:21:44
Aurelio: No, never. And my father always has been very respectful of our decisions, but he was very smart. At that time. You have to remember that in the 80's, traveling around the world was completely different like today. My kids have been everywhere in the world. You know, today, traveling so easy. But at my age, I'm 50 years old, when I was 16, 17, traveling was a luxury thing. And so my father invited me to my first trip outside of Chile, was to Napa in a technical trip. So, I met many winemakers, I met many people. So my father told me, I want to invite you only for you to have fun. So I traveled around. I had so much fun. I visited all Napa. I got in love with these beautiful, beautiful wineries, vineyards and all the stuff. And then after that, my father never pushed me. So what was everything so natural. So it was so natural that when I finished my career and I finish all my trip outside of Chile, I became the winemaker of a winery for almost eight years, another winery, a Chilean winery. So only in the year 2007 as a family, as a father and son, we decided together to start working together. And the reason is very simple. You know that working with the family is so beautiful and wonderful. But normally there's a process that's quite tough because your father is going to be always your father, and as a son you're going to be the son. Always. You never stop being a son. You never stop being a father. So the fights at the beginning was quite strong. But it's part of the process. You know, when you get older, you understand everything. And today with my father, we're so good friends. We share not only winepassion. We also both, we're pilots, helicopter pilots. We love to sail. We love to be outside. We love to travel. So we're very similar, but at the same time different.
Tobias
00:24:04
Tobias: Yeah. But what you describe, I think, is very true, because I know your father as being a very strong person. And from the story you've told me, you know, he gets fired from his job, but still, you know, has the will and the power to, you know, go for his goal producing a premium wine. I mean, that takes some guts. And now working with him together, I think, there have been moments that are a little bit, yeah, tough, I guess. Right?
Aurelio
00:24:38
Aurelio: Definitely, yes. Definitely, yes, and especially when you are a young winemaker, you after, imagine, I worked in Australia, I worked in California, then I worked in France, and then I worked for eight years in another winery. So when I became the winemaker of Montes, I came with many ideas. But in front of me was this strong and powerful guy called Aurelio Montes father, telling me, be careful. You know, Montes has style. Montes is a company that has been doing great things and we have to be careful. We can't change things like this. You know, we're like a big boat that when we want to turn to left, we need to go slowly, you know, moving the boat till you reach the point. But you can't confuse consumers, you know, from one year to another one changing completely the style of the wine. Because at the end, people get confused and say, What is Montes? Is this style, or this style? Or what it is? Right? So, but with all the new energy coming into the company, it was very strong, I was very decided to change, to make some changes. I did some at the beginning, not many, And then started getting a little bit like, with some extra energy and a little bit angry of, we need to go faster, we need to do these things, and that. And then, with my father, we started, you know, discussing, and but at the end of the day, you know, without discussing, without telling the truth face by face, you know, being honest in what you think, is impossible to keep going. It's hard to, to really evolve as a company, if you don't discuss. You need to to put your point on the table, and then discuss as an adult, and then make the best decision for the company. Not for you, for the company. And that's why it took us three, four years. That was horrible, to be honest with you. It was a lot of fights every day. But after that, the first three years, you know, each one understood that it was really important to give a space for each one. So I give some space for my father, my father give some space to me. So we put together and we start working together.
Tobias
00:27:11
Tobias: Wow, that's great to hear that it really worked out that well. Maybe, you know, we have talked about Montes now in a very self-understood way, but maybe some listeners haven't really heard about Montes, which is hard to believe. But just tell us, where in Chile are you located, as a starting point?
Aurelio
00:27:34
Aurelio: Yeah. Well, Montes as a winery and most of our vineyards are located in Colchagua Valley. Colchagua Valley, it's a very beautiful valley, 150 km south from Santiago, the capital of Chile. And then, Colchagua Valley goes from the Andes, from the limit, from Argentina, up to the ocean. So it's a long valley with so many different microclimates. And inside of Colchagua Valley, we're specifically in two places, in Apalta Valley. From the top ten wines from Chile, five come from Apalta. And then we're also in Marchihue, there's another vineyard. It's a newer place. It's not new, but it's newer than Apalta that is closer to the ocean. So two places, completely different terroir. One is mountain, beautiful landscape, forest green, rainy. And the other one is a semi-desert, only separated by, believe it or not, by 40 km. You cannot tell me, no, you're crazy. How? In 40 km can change that much? Well, there's a geographical situation. But at the end, in Marchihue rains half of what we get in Apalta in the same valley, and Marchihue is hills, Apalta is mountains. So, completely different landscape, different type of soil. But as Montes, even that we have the winery in Colchagua we're much open to Chile than Colchagua. We have vineyards in the north in Zapallar. That's 150 km to the north of Santiago, to the coast, closer to the coast. We have vineyards in Zapallar, in Casablanca, Leyda. We also have, we also buy grapes in Maule, in Itata. And our latest crazy project is in Patagonia, 1.200 km south from the vineyard. We planted a new project that is a Chiloé Island. It's like being in Alaska to put you on the map, to be simple, killer whales, you know, sea lions, penguins, and a vineyard.
Tobias
00:30:10
Tobias: Yeah. And just to make it clear for the listeners, going south in Chile is like going north in the northern hemisphere, right?
Aurelio
00:30:20
Aurelio: Exactly.
Tobias
00:30:21
Tobias: It gets colder.
Aurelio
00:30:22
Aurelio: It's a good point. Yeah, it's opposite than in Germany. South for us means rainy, lakes, glaciers and north means desert, warm weather. You know you would you get closer to the equator line. So it's warmer, yes.
Tobias
00:30:39
Tobias: Right. And patagonia could also mean Argentina and Chile, right?
Aurelio
00:30:43
Aurelio: Exactly. Patagonia.
Tobias
00:30:45
Tobias: It's both countries.
Aurelio
00:30:46
Aurelio: Patagonia, it's a big concept. It's all the South of Chile and Argentina. And in Chile, Patagonia is greener. It's more forest. In Argentina it's dryer, it's like Flatland. In Chile, it's always it's mountains, rain, glaciers, rivers, strong rivers. So, yeah, it's different, but it's the same patagonia.
Tobias
00:31:16
Tobias: Yeah, yeah. Well, I had some great Pinot noirs from Patagonia. I think it's a very, very exciting region. And talking about a grape variety, what are the main and most important grape varieties for Montes?
Aurelio
00:31:30
Aurelio: Well, that's a really, really good question, because if you go back, let's talk about numbers first. So, in numbers, in volume, Cabernet Sauvignon, it is the most important grape for Montes. But in terms of image, in terms of what people really follow, it's Carménère. Montes is by far known as the, if not the best, one of the best producers of Carménère in Chile. So, people really follow us for the Carménères. So number one will be Cabernet Sauvignon, number two Carménère. The thing is that to answer that question, I want to explain you a little bit longer in terms of Cabernet Sauvignon in Chile, it's easier to produce than other grapes. Chile is a perfect terroir for Cabernet Sauvignon. You can plant it here, here, here, in different places, and always going to be at least good, then could be very good, or excellent, or exceptional. Okay? Carménère is a different, huge challenge. That's why I always say the most complicated grape to grow is Carmenere and Pinot Noir, also quite complicated. But Carménère in Chile, when you find the place could be a gold mine. But to find a place, it's so difficult. If you plant in an incorrect place, the wine could be undrinkable. So that's why, as an Chilean industry, we're putting a lot of effort to find more specific places for Carménère to improve, even better the quality that we have today in the market. So, that's why in term of volume will be Cabernet Sauvignon, in terms of image will be Carménère.
Tobias
00:33:26
Tobias: Yeah, because that's what I have in mind, when I think about Chile, it's Carménère, because that's where the grape variety really shines. But I didn't know that it's so hard to actually grow it and find the perfect spots. And that actually leads me back to your father, because I've heard you two made wine together with Montes Wings. And this is also Carménère from what I know. Please tell us a little bit about this project and why it's celebrating a Carménère anniversary. Because I haven't really heard about that.
Aurelio
00:34:09
Aurelio: Yeah, well, two things. First of all, we make wines together all the time. But Wings, it has a specific reason why we call Wings, and why we put both names. Because we're both Aurelios Montes, and today I'm the technical director of the company. But my father gets really involved in the decisions. But with Wings was something different. First of all, when you analyze the terroir for Carménère, Carménère needs always better soil. Carménère loves deep soil, richer soil, because Carménère produces very low yield. But you need more concentration. The vine is very equilibrated, so never grow too big. So with good soil, the vines grow in a perfect equilibrium with small clusters. So it works perfectly. And they also like good drainage, so you don't have to have water around Carménère. But one day, many years ago, my father, before I became the winemaker of Montes, my father decided to plant a Carménère in the steepest plantation and the highest elevation in Apalta. He planted Carménère the anti-soil, how I call it, the anti-soil Cabernet. So this is the wonderful thing about winemaking that one plus one is not necessary two. Could be ten or could be minus five. Doesn't matter. You need to try. So my father put this vineyard, and for many years we produced this different Carménère. So one day, I told my father, you know what? I really love this Carménère. This Carménère is a little more feminine, it's really elegant. It's not the purple angel, the big boy, really full of flavors that people love it. So I said, let's show the world that we also can produce a different style of Carménère. So, my father wasn't that convinced. So, I proved him that in blind tasting that the Carménère was good enough to be released. So, he got convinced, and then he told me, Aurelio, we need to add something for the end of the wine. Okay, I solved that problem. I have been trying different grapes to improve the finish of the wine, and I feel that Cabernet Franc is the best, the best combination for this wine. And father got crazy. He said no, the Cabernet Franc is not a blender for Cabernet. I said no, not normally, no. But in this specific wine it's completely different. It's going to match really perfect. So my father will start arguing and I say, okay, let's do something very simple. Choose another grape and let's do it in a blind tasting. And we're five winemakers, so we tasted blind. And finally the five winemakers, including my father, we chose the Carménère with Cabernet Franc Blend. That's not Blend, it's only 15%, but the wine, so at the end of the day, we put wings to the wine, because you need two wings to fly. So, without my father's agreement, I would be alone with one wing trying to fly in a round spin. So, with the two wings together, convinced that the wine was really special. We allowed the angel to fly. So, this Carménère is unique from the highest plantation that we have in Apalta. It's not only for the people from Germany. We're not Argentina, so we don't talk about altitude. We talk about inclination. It's like Germany. Doesn't mean that when you're in a steep inclination, not necessarily. You're too high. It's only 340 m high, so it's not that high. But the base of the winery is in 200 m, so it's 150 m, almost 200 m higher than the winery. So it's really important for the effect. Better drainage, cooler climate. We get the breeze every day from the south of Chile. So it's a very special place.
Tobias
00:38:46
Tobias: And the Carménère Anniversary. What was that story? What kind of anniversary?
Aurelio
00:38:52
Aurelio: We are celebrating this year with all our Carménère the 30th anniversary of discovery of the Carménère. In Carménère, the grape Carménère was brought to Chile by mistake in the 1800's as Merlot, and only in the year 1994 with a French expert, French ampelographer, that is the guy that can recognize the grapes through the leaf, he told us, you know, this Merlot is not Merlot. You have you have a Blend in the vineyard. It's not only Merlot. You have Merlot, but you also have another grape that I can't recognize. So he took some leaf. He went back to France and he called us back and said, you know, you have Carménère. And we said, what is Carménère? That Carménère disappeared from France many years ago with the phylloxera pest. So, we say, okay, we have something new, and we start planting Carménère. And at the beginning we made so many mistakes because we start planting in different places. Of course, many of them were incorrect places. And so, so it has been 30 years of investigation. 30 years of being more precise in the wine-making process. So that's why we're celebrating everywhere in the world with the 30th anniversary of Carménère in Chile.
Tobias
00:40:26
Tobias: Wow. Congratulations from my side. That's, that's really...
Aurelio
00:40:30
Aurelio: We're happy, we're happy.
Tobias
00:40:31
Tobias: Yeah, that's a nice, nice story. One of my favorite subjects in this podcast is climate change. And back in 2013, I've already learned that Chile is really low on water. So water from the ground and that having water rights is a very important thing for a lot of winemakers. I'm sure it's still like that, although you already told me about rainfalls, but I think water is still a problem, or not having water is a problem. But how did climate change kind of has an effect on this?
Aurelio
00:41:13
Aurelio: Well, climate change has been an issue in all the world, but I have to explain to you something about what is going on in Chile. In Chile, everyone has been talking about the water. But from my point of view, it's not only climate change. When I became a winemaker 24 years ago, traveling to Colchagua. Colchagua used to be a half of the barley was planted. Today it's 100% planted. So, it's not only that we have less water, it's also that we have been planting more and more and more. I'm talking about fruit, corns, whatever. So, people, world is growing, Chilean population is growing. So, we have been planting more. So, even if we have the same amount of water, we have more hectares to irrigate. So, that's why also it's another problem. Second, for me the biggest problem is that in Chile we have an invest in to solve the problem, because in Chile we have plenty of water. That is not my point of view, is made by technical people that the government brought from Israel to analyze our situation. And they came here saying it's crazy. You have plenty of water! You have water everywhere. The thing is that we have plenty of water in winter, and then in summer we run out of water. So you need to construct bigger reservoirs. And the government, for different reasons here, I'm not going to go inside of politics, but we have an invest in that. So building a few reservoirs will change everything in Chile first. That doesn't mean, I'm not saying that there's no climate change problem with. We're adding more problems to the problem. So, but today in the last two years we had a lot of rain. And specifically this year we're full of water, full of water. Rivers coming with plenty of water. The snow that we have in the Andes is crazy good. So we have at least for two years, we have a lot of water, but we can't depend only on the snow. We need to hold the water in the period that we get rains. So, and also a second problem, I will say the biggest problem that we have here in Chile, in the world, sorry, not in Chile, and you can see by the news, is that the average numbers haven't changed a lot. So, the amount of water that we get during winter is more or less the same than the last hundred years. The amount of sand, the amount of, you know, the temperature, the peak of temperature, it's more or less the same when I talk in average. But here in winter today we're having huge storms that are not usual for Chilean weather. So like in Spain, like in Europe that from one second to another one, we receive millions of millions of litres, you know, coming all together, and then we don't get water for one month. And then another big storm. So we are having a more extreme weather that's it. We need to change our way of living. We need to be more prepared for all these extreme weather, extreme heat. The average heat in Chile has been the same for the last, you know, how many years. But today we're having one week of peak of temperature. Totally unusual. 40 degrees, that's completely unusual for Chile. So, that's why we need to be careful how we analyze this climate change. It's not only heat, it's not only that we have less water. It's a combination of different situations that we need to adapt.
Tobias
00:45:34
Tobias: So, you have to be very innovative, I guess. And I think you're really most important wine or wine series, Montes Alpha, is actually a pretty good example for that. Because I've heard that you are not, you know, resting on your laurels, but you're really innovating with this wine, talking about reducing water use, but also in the vinification process, trying to, you know, use less extraction and stuff like that. Please tell us about this process of, you know, developing such iconic wines over the years without, you know, disturbing the positive experience by the customer.
Aurelio
00:46:20
Aurelio: Yeah. It's, uh, as you said, we as Montes, we are known by as being a pioneer in innovative winery. We spend all our time, or every year we do something different, trying to learn from the vineyard, from the winery. But I have to tell you something. 80% of the quality come from the vineyard. So as a winemaker, we're not magicians. We don't transform bad grapes in good wines. We transform good grapes into good wines. So, all our effort, most of our effort has been done at the vineyard. So, the use of water in a responsible way will decrease in half of the use of water. In the past we used to irrigate by, okay, it's, we need to add this amount of water. Then we'll start using technology, more technology. Then, you know, thinking about how could be more efficient. And now, we use half of the water that we used to use to irrigate the wine with the same result. Second, with all this climate change, I always compare the vine with kids. When you're a parent that you're all day taking care of your kids. Use the sweater. Be careful with the water. Don't get wet. At the end, you're doing something bad for your kid. You know, my kids are wild. My kids are the kind of kids that they go with t-shirts, you know, in winter to the school. And if they're cold, they put the jacket. But I don't oblige them to use a jacket. If it's raining and they get wet, they get wet. Doesn't matter. They go home, I change the clothes. The same with the vineyard. The vineyard, for many years we tried to be, we tried to control the vineyard. Let's keep clean without any weeds at the vineyard. So, very clean. Let's keep the vine very, very tight. So, can the vineyard, used to look like, we always make a joke, like the German army. You're very organized, clean, you're perfect. Well, today, not anymore. Today, we decided to release the mind, to say, okay, be free. So we're working with regenerative agriculture. So you go to the vineyard, and there's a lot of grass around. A lot of life inside of the soil. The canopy of the vineyards are open. So let's organize a little bit more hippie, but finally the vines, by their own decision, they have been adapting to this climate change alone without spraying anything, without trying to change. So, and we have proved that the quality of the vineyard, of the grapes of this wild, wilder vineyard has increased a lot. Because you get more equilibrium, more acidity, more freshness, better tannins. Everything is better when the vines grow in a more, you know, free way. And then at the winery, the same philosophy, if you are producing a premium wine, you don't need to overstrike, you don't need to add any product. When you're producing cheaper wines, you need to add more things, you know, to the wine to make it drinkable. You know, I'm going very to the extreme, but when you're a premium wine, you have to do very slow and small pump overs. We don't add anything to the wine, only yeast for the fermentation. We finish the fermentation, we age the wine and then we bottle them. That's it. Simple! So, let's make it simple to express. The best terroir of Chile. That's a little bit the way how we work at the vineyard and at the winery.
Tobias
00:50:34
Tobias: But what you said about the characteristic of the wine being, you know, fresh, it's also, I think, something that the wine drinkers prefer more and more. I mean, thinking 20 years back or something, people were looking for very fruit driven, very bold, very powerful wines. And I think this has changed a little bit. People are concerned when they look on the bottle. Oh, it's 15.5% alcohol, and it has a lot of tannins, a lot of power. I think, people are really looking into wines that are a little bit more fresh. So that's, I'm just speculating, this also might be a reason why you also try to, you know, change Montes Alpha a little bit.
Aurelio
00:51:27
Aurelio: Yeah, yeah. At the end, you know, I have to explain everyone that before being a winemaker, I'm a wine drinker, a wine lover. So, I also like to drink wine. And I have to recognize that in the past, especially in the New World countries, in the at the beginning of 2000, before 2010, the styles of the wine used to be the big boys, the big, you know, Schwarzenegger wines, right? You know. With a lot of muscles, with a lot of energy. But yes, after drinking two glasses, you were like, I'm done. You know, I want now to drink a beer or whatever other things.
Tobias
00:52:08
Tobias: Yeah, or go to sleep.
Aurelio
00:52:10
Aurelio: Or go to sleep. We're producing wine. That has to be much more drinkable without losing complexity. Because here there's a small line in between being simple, lighter and, you know, and and lighter and complex. So you have to be always working with the complexity without losing, you know. And that's why what I explained you before, if you have good grapes, everything is so easy. That's why we spend all the time outside looking for the vineyards, trying to get the best from the vineyard, because then you don't have to do anything at the winery. It's only a simple winemaking process. And then let's go to the bottle. Fresher, easy to drink, softer tannins. But at the same time, wine that can age. Maybe you have to sacrifice a little bit of a liability. If you ask me, Aurelio in the past, how long normally Montes Alpha Cabernet Sauvignon you would recommend to age? 20, 25 years. No problem. Nowadays, the wines are drinkable now. You don't need to wait 25 years. So today, 15 years? Of course you can drink it today. That's my target. I like to release wines that you can open today and drink it today. But if you want to age for 10, 15 years, no problem. Easy.
Tobias
00:53:46
Tobias: Yeah, yeah. Very good to hear. And you already said it. You're also a wine lover. And that's a very good point, because we have one question that we try to ask all of our guests. So, imagine you are on a deserted island with a huge underground wine cellar, at the perfect temperature, of course. However, you are only allowed to store one wine from one vintage. Which one would it be? It doesn't have to be a Montes. It can, of course, but it's only one wine.
Aurelio
00:54:24
Aurelio: Oh, it's, uh! It's like really, really...
Tobias
00:54:28
Tobias: Nobody likes that question.
Aurelio
00:54:33
Aurelio: I'm gonna tell you something. For sure, Pinot noir. Pinot noir. I'm a kind of guy that I love Pinot noir. Don't make me wrong. I love most of the wines in the world, and my second best will be Carménère. But if I have to choose one grape forever, or to drink my last bottle of wine will be Pinot noir. I have many options, there are many good options on Pinot noir in my cellar. But I have to be honest with you. I have been working so tough in my life to change and to promote Pinot noir from Chile that our Outer Limits Pinot Noir is one of the wines that I will drink forever. It's a wine that has been, you know, I have been suffering a lot. That's why I told you, Carménère and Pinot noir has been or are the most complicated grapes to grow. But that wine, for me, it's a wine that is closer to our perfection, I'm not comparing with other parts of the world, to Chilean perfection. It's one of the wines that I really love it.
Tobias
00:55:51
Tobias: And which vintage would be like the most drinkable right now? Just as a recommendation for our listeners as well. So we're talking about Pinot Noir Outer Limits from Montes. How do they age?
Aurelio
00:56:06
Aurelio: They age wonderful. I just opened some beautiful wines last week, and for many years, 2015 is a year that I will recommend you to drink. Now, with that beautiful light evolution, with that beautiful acidity of that year. That will be one of my most favorite years. And as a second option will be 2021. But also it's an amazing year. I will wait a little bit longer for 2021. But, if you don't find 15, 21 can be an amazing year.
Tobias
00:56:45
Tobias: That's a very good tip. And yeah, I think 21 has a better availability. Maybe you can also tell me something about 2013 Syrah from your Folly-series. I'm just asking this out of personal interest, because I've helped night harvesting the Syrah-grapes when I've visited Montes, and I've actually never have tried the wine that I helped producing. Is it still drinkable?
Aurelio
00:57:14
Aurelio: Yeah, completely, completely drinkable. Folly, it's a wine, it's a wine that has been designed that we decided to produce as a big boy. It's one of the wines that we don't like to change, the style is what people like it, what people follow for this wine, and the ability of that wine, if not the best of Montes, is one of the best to age. You drink the wine for 2001 and it's crazy good. 2013, it was a warmer year in terms of the summer, so was a good year, good year to age. Not as long maybe as other years, but I tried, as I told you, because we're trying now, we're doing a vertical taste of all our icon wines. And 2013 is great today. Today is, if someone have a bottle of Folly 2013. You have to drink it now because it's beautiful. It's beautiful.
Tobias
00:58:17
Tobias: Oh, wow. I have to try to get my hands on a bottle of that.
Aurelio
00:58:22
Aurelio: We have to send you a bottle, so you can try it.
Tobias
00:58:24
Tobias: Yeah, you should. Okay, to end our very nice conversation, I have one last question, because I know that it's a problem for a lot of wineries. How is the next generation coming up and how big are the chances that Montes stays in family ownership?
Aurelio
00:58:47
Aurelio: Boy. Wow, wow, wow. That's, uh, yeah, it's a complicated answer, because I have four kids, the same as my father. I'm not going to oblige them to follow my steps. Hopefully one of them, today, they're very young. My oldest daughter is 15, and my youngest daughter is 6 years old. I have three daughters and one son. And, of course I'm going to do my best to show them the beautiful side of Montes. Today, I have to tell you something, I feel very proud. All of them want to be a winemaker.
Tobias
00:59:28
Tobias: Nice.
Aurelio
00:59:28
Aurelio: So at least till today, I have done a good job, but...
Tobias
00:59:34
Tobias: You should record a video, you know, of them saying it, so that you can like play it to them over and over
Aurelio
00:59:41
Aurelio: Every year, yeah. But it's something that we, we talked about this and, maybe not as a winemaker. Maybe they can get involved in other areas, but I would love to have at least one of them, my oldest daughter is the one that's closer. She loves to taste. She loves to smell. She loves to try new things. It's a more open mind. But, well, I need to wait. But yeah, it's something that we are worry and hopefully we're going to do a good job as a family to keep going i n the business.
Tobias
01:00:18
Tobias: Yeah, well, I'll keep my fingers crossed. And last but not least, just to let our listeners know why they should try a wine from Chile, why they should try a wine from Montes. In quick words.
Aurelio
01:00:32
Aurelio: First of all, Chile is a unique wine, a unique country, or a unique wine producer. And with that, if I have to describe Chile in one word, I will say diversity. We have a crazy amount of the diverse terroir and places. And why Montes? Because if you want to taste, the pureness of quality wine from Chile and terroir from Chile, Montes is, if not the best example, is one of the best example of the best wines from Chile. We work 100% of our time. We're a family of winemakers that we put all our focus on quality, on the terroir, on the taste of Chilean wines. We don't want to copy anyone in the world. So, Chile is unique. So, given an option to try good wines from Chile, and if you want to try premium wines from Chile, Montes, it is the option to choose.
Tobias
01:01:37
Tobias: Wow, that's a very good way to end this interview with you, Aurelio. Thank you very much. And, yeah, take care and hope to see you soon.
Aurelio
01:01:46
Aurelio: Oh, thank you, Tobias, for your time and it has been great to talk with you.
Tobias
01:01:50
Tobias: Ja, und ich freue mich natürlich darauf, wenn es beim nächsten Mal wieder heißt.
Aurelio
01:01:55
Aurelio: Bei Anruf.
Tobias
01:01:57
Tobias: Wein.

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